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  1. #11
    accozzaglia's Avatar
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    Yeah. Enough sorting through things in advance taught me that red filters were off the table from the start. I'll look for that book at my university library, but I'm not sure if they're liable to have it. I'm still baffled by the serious blue of indoor, fluorescent-lit scenes (and this was with that orange filter!). It was the last thing I expected, and I've not yet seen anyone else with anything like it.

    Indeed. Digital people are now trying to emulate it by tinkering with alpha channels on their IR-hacked cameras, but it's nowhere close.

    Because I only have a few rolls of EIR, it isn't likely I'm going to buy a set of Wratten filters (and the equipment to use them) unless they end up in a Freecycle pile. I'll just work with what I have in terms of screw-on filters. But I'll try the next roll at 200 or maybe 250, as I worry that going 400 will make it really grainy. I typically like grainy, but for EIR I'm finding the crispness somewhat intriguing given the unique colour palette.

    Also, one more thing: I shot blue skies late in the day, and the hue is a light blue, even marginally cyan. It's pleasing, but it wasn't totally expected. I've seen other EIR shots where the sky is deep blue, verging on black. Is this the use of a polariser atop the colour filtering?

    Thanks for the advice!

    Astrid



    Quote Originally Posted by colrehogan View Post
    There is a book by Stephen Begleiter titled, The Art of Color Infrared Photography. I found this book to be highly useful - along with copious notes on a single roll where I tried various filters. Note, the red filter did not look good at all. Yellow and orange gave cool effects.

    This is one film effect that I have yet to see reproduced faithfully in digital. The color IR effects I have seen look nothing like what you can get with EIR. IMO.

    Kodak recommends the Wratten 12 (and maybe even a CC50 filter). I think that I have either rated the film at 200 or on occasion 400. I do recall that Stephen Begleiter's book does recommend the CC50 filter for various applications, but I'd have to go back and look. I did buy one of these filters, but have yet to try it on this film. Guess that's something I'll have to try soon.

    Okay, I just looked at the film spec sheet and it lists the ISO for E6 process as being 200. It lists ISO 100 for the AR-5 process. It is ti2323 on the Kodak site. I put a link to that page and you should be able to scroll down to the EIR listing. http://www.kodak.com/global/en/profe...ColorRev.jhtml

    It also lists several CC (color correcting) filters for use with tungsten lighting, namely a CC20C, and a CC50C. I have tried several other CC filters in daylight with decent looking results.

    I have also found this film to give pleasing results with evergreens in snowy scenes.

  2. #12
    accozzaglia's Avatar
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    OK. I've had the roll scanned. This will take you directly to the "blue" shots under fluorescent lighting. Every EIR shot I have so far came from the same roll and all used the Hoya G orange filter:

    Both "blue" shots:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/aged_ac...ia/3753980666/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/aged_ac...ia/3753189135/

    The EIR set for comparison:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/aged_ac...7621690266531/

  3. #13
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  4. #14
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    Read the data sheet for the film first: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...mQUMMdmO-1HeEg

    As I remember from the data sheet form EIR's predecessor, Kodak Ektachrome Infrared Film, they say that you need a #12 or similar filter to keep the pix from going terribly blue. They say that is MUST BE used with a #12 filter for scientific and other critical applications, and to use #8, #15, #22, or no filter at all for pictorial effects. This film with a #12 filter has EI 100 listed as a starting point in daylight in process E-4.

    I imagine that EIR is pretty similar. Read the data sheet and you should find what you need to know.

    If in doubt, I'd use a #12 filter at the recommended starting point, guess/bracket toward overexposure, and process it as a color negative.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 07-25-2009 at 08:35 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  5. #15
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    Read the data sheet for the film first: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...mQUMMdmO-1HeEg

    As I remember from the data sheet form EIR's predecessor, Kodak Ektachrome Infrared Film, they say that you need a #12 or similar filter to keep the pix from going terribly blue. They say that is MUST BE used with a #12 filter for scientific and other critical applications, and to use #8, #15, #22, or no filter at all for pictorial effects. This film with a #12 filter has EI 100 listed as a starting point in daylight in process E-4.

    I imagine that EIR is pretty similar. Read the data sheet and you should find what you need to know.

    If in doubt, I'd use a #12 filter at the recommended starting point, guess/bracket toward overexposure, and process it as a color negative.
    What! If all else fails, read the instructions? In this day of computers, digisnaps and tweeting no one knows how to read instructions anymore!

    Steve
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  6. #16
    accozzaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyrick View Post
    I know these sites, read these sites, and always have them bookmarked. Neither ever mentioned a thing about "shooting under fluorescent light".

    Don't get me wrong: I'm not devastated, disappointed, or annoyed that these turned out that way. I'm just very curious. After looking at other EIR/Aerochrome work out there, it was a first for me to see this effect.

  7. #17
    accozzaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    What! If all else fails, read the instructions? In this day of computers, digisnaps and tweeting no one knows how to read instructions anymore!

    Steve
    OK, if you're gonna be catty, then before you RTFMing me, try actually RTFPing for me — where "P" is "posting".

    1) I have read these technical guides and user experiences on teh intarnats for the last two years (from roughly the time I acquired EIR).

    2) I asked about fluorescent lighting situations. Do a word search on "fluorescen[*]" in the Kodak EIR technical guide, or on the pair of URLs helpfully provided by skyrick. Let me know what you find. 2F/2F kindly gave a direct link to the technical guide, so it shouldn't put you back much.

    3) Aside from "Kodak Wratten filter #12" — not made any longer, not adequately described — being a "yellow" filter (which could be everything from canary yellow to harvest gold), there isn't much else on the info, not even a reference shot of what one looks like. Other regular EIR users, if you bothered going online, are using any or several of the Hoya O (G) filter (some call this "yellow", but if this yellow, then red is the new orange), the B+W 099 Infracolor orange filter, or any variation of yellow or gold for achieving certain colour effects under daylight conditions. Some even use red filters, even though that results in harsh effects that are generally not desired (but hey, whatever gets you up in the morning). I even know what to expect with EIR under moonlit conditions.


    So please, Steve: step back, go back and re-read what I asked and why I asked about shooting under fluorescent lighting. If, until and when you've decided to return without being adversarial, arrogant, sarcastic, or diminutive, and if you have something helpful, amicable, and knowledgeable to offer — photographer to photographer — then please, we're all ears here as we all stand to learn something from it.

    Otherwise, quit meddling like a troll would and sit on your hands next time. Thanks!

  8. #18
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    The reason filters don't work as normal with this film is because it is a "false color" film.

    "False color" means that each layer is not physically dyed the same color as the light that exposed it, like with normal pos. film. With a #12 in place, with this film, on the final transparency, IR light is captured in red, red light is captured in green, green light is captured in blue, and blue light is not captured at all (AKA black).

    Normally, a color pos. film has three layers, one sensitive to each of the primary colors of light. This film has three layers as well; the same three layers as normal: after processing, red, green, and blue. They are just sensitized to different colors of light than a normal film. One is sensitive to IR, one to red, and one to green. All three are also sensitive to blue. Thus, without a yellow filter, each layer's density is also being controlled by blue light. Therefore, the baseline "normal" for this film to act as I just described is always with "minus blue" filtration in place.

    Which yellow filter you use simply controls the amount of blue light that makes it to the film. With the "baseline" #12, no blue light shows up. If you can't get the #12, I am certain that a #8 or #15 will do the trick. We aren't scientists, so it will be good enough, IMO.

    To figure out how to monkey with this film in different light sources, since I hear in this thread that a #12 is no longer made or hard to find, I suggest investing in a #8, a #15, and a set of CC gels and a filter holder. You have to think about the false color characteristics I mentioned above when trying to tweak things with the CC filters. If you want less green, then you need to tweak filtration in a way that decreases green in the final transparency. What color light controls green with this film? Not green light, like with normal films, but red light. So, to decrease green, you need to decrease the amount of red light hitting the film. Thus, add cyan filtration.

    Remember, with a #12 in place:

    Blue light = black tone
    Green light = blue layer
    Red light = green layer
    IR light = red layer

    ...and yes, the only place I learned all this is from the data sheet.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 07-25-2009 at 05:44 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

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  9. #19
    accozzaglia's Avatar
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    Hi 2F/2F —

    Thanks for assisting here. I grok the correlation on the black-blue skies bit. I have relied on this page for reference on blue-sky rendering based on filter selection. In his examples, the sky darkens towards the zenith, while lightens near the horizon. The only shots I made with my EIR roll with skies were near the horizon where blue mixes with diffusion from haze, prticles, and other light-scattering materials, so this makes sense.

    The fluorescent lighting situation, however, remains an unsolved question.

    The trio of imaging layers in EIR — and how they correspond to light wavelengths — are familiar to me and have been (hence no surprise whatsoever when a naturally ginger-headed boy with his sax came up green-skinned (versus pink), while a Mediterranean, olive-skinned woman came up more or less looking, well, "fleshy"). Thanks to the guy who shoots and sells the repackaged Aerochrome III, I also know to use light green lipstick to render lips more reddish and "natural" looking. Thus, from years before I contemplated buying a roll of EIR (aware of what it looked like for most of my life, but didn't know what it was by name until about 1998), I was cognisant of how EIR images render a false colour representation based on technical specifications. I also know how colour emulsions in general — including Kodachrome, a different beast entirely — works. I may not be a chemist or optics expert, but these are the kind of fundamentals one should get to know about their film before they shoot it. This is why I understand, for instance, how tungsten colour reversal emulsions work and love them for that reason (as you do, too!).

    Understanding that fluorescent lighting tends to skew depending on which type of indoor fluorescent lighting is used ("daylight" is cool bluish, and there's also the "warm" pinkish variety), it still comes as a surprise to see the fluorescent lighting outcome. I would presume that a fluorescent filter like FL/FL-D, atop the primary orange/099/#12/etc. filter, might work, as the former is designed to cut the spikes in that emission source — which spikes in both the red and green primarily, and the blue and violet secondarily. For this reason, I doubt a yellow #12/Y48/etc. filter would be sufficient to contend with fluorescent spikes.

    Care to ponder?


    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    The reason filters don't work as normal with this film is because it is a "false color" film.
    "False color" means that each layer is not physically dyed the same color of the light that exposed it, like with normal pos. film. With a #12 in place, with this film, on the final transparency, IR light is captured in red, red light is captured in green, green light is captured in blue, and blue light is not captured at all (AKA black).

  10. #20
    skyrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by accozzaglia View Post
    I know these sites, read these sites, and always have them bookmarked. Neither ever mentioned a thing about "shooting under fluorescent light".
    I was replying to the Original Poster regarding filters and EIR.

    Rick

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