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  1. #1

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    EIR film speed with filters...

    The other day I picked up a roll of Kodak Ektachrome EIR for a pound (1.3 USD/ 1.07 EUR). It's a rather expired roll (09 / 2005), but for that little I thought I'd give it a go in my Nikon FM. If it turns out then yay, if not oh well, I burned a pound.

    Here's where I'm stuck; I've done lots of reading on the fact you'll need a filter (I have to hand a Cokin 003 (which is about a Wratten 25)), and that you'll have to bracket, but I'm unsure as to what my initial setting of the film speed should be. Searching the forums didn't appear to reap any results (I tried a few phrases and key words).

    The Kodak documents talk of using a #12 filter (I'm to assume this is actually yellow?) and what setting to use depending on how I process it (AR-5 and #12 = ISO 100). However, I've been unable to track down how to translate this down to a #25. Searching around only shows results for HIR (#25 with HIR makes ISO 50), so I guess I have just a few questions:

    • What ISO should I be using with EIR and a #25?
    • Is a #25 the correct filter to use with EIR? If not, what is and is there a Cokin equiv?
    • Will such expired film actually work?


    Sorry for the use of parenthesis. Sub-sentences for the win. Hope you can help!

    NeoThermic

  2. #2

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    A yellow filter is colour correction to counteract the blue tendency of EIR, red is more extreme. Have a search on www.flickr.com, I just tried "eir yellow filter" and "eir red filter" (without the quotes around all three terms) and found plenty of results. The ones in my IR set http://www.flickr.com/photos/nord_mo...7607606277497/ are shot with medium yellow.

    I shot a roll in September with an expiry of 12/2006 and it looked to have just the same colour balance as the roll I shot a year previously which had just expired at the time. All of mine is stored in a freezer, and was bought from a dealer who presumably also stored it correctly. If yours hasn't been frozen, it's likely to have lost IR sensitivity to some extent.

    I find setting the ISO at 250 on my Nikon FE gives good results on sunny summer or autumn days in the UK. As you only have one roll I would just go with that, otherwise I would suggest bracketing to give you a better idea for your local conditions.

    Ian

  3. #3
    tiberiustibz's Avatar
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    That film looks awesome. So it was a unique product which has been pulled? Lovely...

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan160 View Post
    A yellow filter is colour correction to counteract the blue tendency of EIR, red is more extreme.
    Ouch, I'm not too fond of the results with a red filter. I take it a Cokin 001 yellow is about what I'd need?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan160
    If yours hasn't been frozen, it's likely to have lost IR sensitivity to some extent.
    I doubt mine was frozen. Refrigerated if I was lucky but when I purchased it it was not in a fridge. I put it into the freezer when I got it back though.

    Do you know of where one would obtain refrigerated/frozen EIR?

    I guess I should set to about 200 or 160 since I'd have lost IR sensitivity...

    NeoThermic

  5. #5
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    I shot a roll of EIR in August, in Chigago using a Hoya "G" gold filter, at ISO 200. (I think) The results were pretty good, given that it was my only experience using this film and I had no opportunity to experiment and adjust my practices. One thing I learned is that though the scenes I was shooting were often quite colourful, the false-colour effect was most pronounced with foliage, flowers and fabrics. (the three "Fs"?) Concrete, steel and painted surfaces simply do not render the same vibrant colour palette. (I only wish I had a supply of this film now to practice what I have learned.)

    There is a pronounced blue shift to the film, even with the gold filter. I've looked at the Flicker stream using the #25 red filter and I agree that it does look rather extreme. It might be ok for a few shots, but I don't think I'd shoot my only roll with it.

    Good luck with this film, and let us know how everything works out for you.

    Cheers,
    Tom, on Point Pelee, Canada

    Ansel Adams had the Zone System... I'm working on the points system. First I points it here, and then I points it there...

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  6. #6

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    I am thinking of selling some of my EIR. I just don't have time to do justice to the quantity I have left :-(

    PM me if you are interested, Neothermic (or anyone else!)

    Ian

  7. #7
    Toffle's Avatar
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    P.M sent.
    Tom, on Point Pelee, Canada

    Ansel Adams had the Zone System... I'm working on the points system. First I points it here, and then I points it there...

    http://tom-overton-images.weebly.com


  8. #8
    timbo10ca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoThermic View Post
    Ouch, I'm not too fond of the results with a red filter. I take it a Cokin 001 yellow is about what I'd need?



    I doubt mine was frozen. Refrigerated if I was lucky but when I purchased it it was not in a fridge. I put it into the freezer when I got it back though.

    Do you know of where one would obtain refrigerated/frozen EIR?

    I guess I should set to about 200 or 160 since I'd have lost IR sensitivity...

    NeoThermic
    I wouldn't increase exposure just because it may have "lost IR sensitivity" due to storage-Keep in mind that this is slide film with IR *sensitivity*, causing a color shift. You expose based on the rating of the film. you may just lose some of the color shift craziness due to lack of sensitivity. Being long expired though, *that* may require a bit more exposure. Definetley bracket this one, as you have 2 things going against you in an already tricky film.

    Personally, I rate it at 200 for "bright" days with some light haze and 320 for "blazing bright days with lots of reflection (sand, white, etc) and no cloud" at sea level, around the 53 parallel N, middle of summer. This was based on what I found in Begleiter's book, who is in the USA so it probably depends more on equipment than geographical location. I use the Cokin #'s 1 and 2, depending on the look or effect I'm after. I posted samples in another EIR thread here somewhere. I approach FF for HIE and EIR the same as I do for non IR films- meter through the filter with your ISO set. I don't add a Hutching's Factor for HIE though and I do for non-IR, but that's totally OT. It works fine for the EIR as long as you meter carefully (I blew a roll by being lazy and going "sunny 16", regardless of the sun's direction over the course of an afternoon and I underexposed everything by about a stop. Mind you, this was at high elevation in Utah and weird things happen there ). The #1 is about 0-1/2 stop and the #2 is about 2/3 - 1 stop added exposure in my hands.

    Tim
    If only we could pull out our brains and use only our eyes. P. Picasso

    http://www.timbowlesphotography.com

  9. #9
    accozzaglia's Avatar
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    More about filters, fluorescent lighting, exposure speeds.

    Quote Originally Posted by timbo10ca View Post
    I wouldn't increase exposure just because it may have "lost IR sensitivity" due to storage-Keep in mind that this is slide film with IR *sensitivity*, causing a color shift. You expose based on the rating of the film. you may just lose some of the color shift craziness due to lack of sensitivity. Being long expired though, *that* may require a bit more exposure. Definetley bracket this one, as you have 2 things going against you in an already tricky film.

    Personally, I rate it at 200 for "bright" days with some light haze and 320 for "blazing bright days with lots of reflection (sand, white, etc) and no cloud" at sea level, around the 53 parallel N, middle of summer. This was based on what I found in Begleiter's book, who is in the USA so it probably depends more on equipment than geographical location. I use the Cokin #'s 1 and 2, depending on the look or effect I'm after. I posted samples in another EIR thread here somewhere. I approach FF for HIE and EIR the same as I do for non IR films- meter through the filter with your ISO set. I don't add a Hutching's Factor for HIE though and I do for non-IR, but that's totally OT. It works fine for the EIR as long as you meter carefully (I blew a roll by being lazy and going "sunny 16", regardless of the sun's direction over the course of an afternoon and I underexposed everything by about a stop. Mind you, this was at high elevation in Utah and weird things happen there ). The #1 is about 0-1/2 stop and the #2 is about 2/3 - 1 stop added exposure in my hands.

    Tim
    I'm picking back up this thread with some questions, because I'm not clear about a couple of points.

    I just shot and had processed my first EIR roll today. Overall, I'm intrigued by the results, and think it's a really cool emulsion. I shot it at 160 and had them process it like it was 160. I used the Hoya "G" orange filter, and hue-wise, it was exactly what I'd hoped for. I would have intuitively thought that by dealing with brighter circumstances, one would actually want to go with the suggested EI100 with perhaps an underexposure of 1/3 or 2/3rd stop (or the equivalent of 125 or 160). What I found was that with paler skin tones, I used both spot and centre-weighted metering and shot based on that. The outcome was the faces were often washed out (using a bounced speedlight was a bigger problem I'll deal with separately).

    Knowing in advance that it's an unforgiving film in terms of emulsion, would it make more sense to just underexpose by the 1/3rd-2/3rd stop at EI100, EI 160, or even EI 200 instead treating it as a high-speed film (e.g., 320?). Also, on the topic of filters, I shot three images under fluorescent tube lighting (basically, in an office). Those turned out with an exceptionally blue cast, even cerulean. Would I want to couple the Hoya G orange with, say, an FL-D filter, aware that that nixes at least about 2 stops, possibly more? Or would that be counterproductive and result in something with something even crazier? Or because the orange G should have cut out the blue sensitization generally, then perhaps I need to be looking at another filter entirely, like a #25 red? I ruled out that it's ultraviolet lighting, since the lens coating would have more or less cut that out.

    (I'll have some of these scanned by the weekend if anyone needs visual reference.)

    Cheers.

  10. #10
    colrehogan's Avatar
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    There is a book by Stephen Begleiter titled, The Art of Color Infrared Photography. I found this book to be highly useful - along with copious notes on a single roll where I tried various filters. Note, the red filter did not look good at all. Yellow and orange gave cool effects.

    This is one film effect that I have yet to see reproduced faithfully in digital. The color IR effects I have seen look nothing like what you can get with EIR. IMO.

    Kodak recommends the Wratten 12 (and maybe even a CC50 filter). I think that I have either rated the film at 200 or on occasion 400. I do recall that Stephen Begleiter's book does recommend the CC50 filter for various applications, but I'd have to go back and look. I did buy one of these filters, but have yet to try it on this film. Guess that's something I'll have to try soon.

    Okay, I just looked at the film spec sheet and it lists the ISO for E6 process as being 200. It lists ISO 100 for the AR-5 process. It is ti2323 on the Kodak site. I put a link to that page and you should be able to scroll down to the EIR listing. http://www.kodak.com/global/en/profe...ColorRev.jhtml

    It also lists several CC (color correcting) filters for use with tungsten lighting, namely a CC20C, and a CC50C. I have tried several other CC filters in daylight with decent looking results.

    I have also found this film to give pleasing results with evergreens in snowy scenes.
    Diane

    Halak 41

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