Originally Posted by nsurit
I agree with you that the alt-process people are doing some amazing work that must be seen. Each time I visit the HybridPhoto galleries, I am taken aback by the beautiful work there.
But, I agree with the others, that there are already enough options out there, especially to discuss things. If you don't like to "bail-out" of APUG for discussing hybrid topics, you could consider joining the Hybrid Photo Group here on APUG by PM'ing the moderator, which probably serves a little like the "grey" area of APUG (that I haven't known) used too...
It seems you can even post and show your photos with APUG Groups nowadays, so even that is possible!
And, although admittedly, like Autumnjazz stated, the HybridPhoto site gets low traffic, it still is a forum with a lot of interesting and knowledgeable people. Just don't expect your answers to arrive in 5 seconds, like they sometimes do here on APUG.
"The nineteenth century began by believing that what was reasonable was true, and it wound up by believing that what it saw a photograph of, was true.
" - William M. Ivins Jr.
"I don't know, maybe we should disinvent color, and we could just shoot Black & White.
" - David Burnett in 1978
"Analog is chemistry + physics, digital is physics + math, which ones did you like most?
I would assert that many, if not most. folks doing alternative processes, processes that that date back to the beginning of photography, use negatives that have been created by scanning a negative and enlarging it. There are some who use large format cameras and contact print from a negative, however these are certainly in the minority. Unlike most APUGers, when doing alternative processes, we don't go out and buy a box Ilford or search eBay for a box of our favorite long ago discontinued paper. No, we start with a blank piece of paper, size it, dry it, apply a sensitized coating, dry it, contact print it either using the sun or a light box and then process it in chemistry we have made. This might be contrasted with a photographer who buys a roll of DX capable film, slips it in their "Mr. Automatic" camera, exposes it, takes it to the local drug store, gets it processed, digitally printed, scanned onto a disk and presents it to APUG as an analog image. They might even shoot it on Kodak 400CN to really impress folks with their B&W images. You tell me who is more connected to photography, traditional processes and image making.
When I go to the news stand there is material I may find offensive, however I wouldn't want the news stand to censor that so those who did have an interest in its content could read it. It is there for me to read if I so choose.
I am of the opinion that folks who use a digitized negative in making alternative process prints, do have something to offer on the forum and should be allowed to post their images and post to that discussion group. Those who sensitivities are offended by such posts don't have to read them. They will be the poorer for it.
It is a little sad that people think they *have* to go the digital enlarged negative route though, especially if they're okay B&W darkroom printers, all you have to do is swap out the paper for some APHS ortho litho film and do some contact printing in the darkroom and you're there with an enlarged negative. I'd rather be in a darkroom than having to spot a negative scan then fiddle with it then print it out.
This is a tired old argument that keeps popping up periodically and has been settled by the owner of the site. Sean has set up hybridphoto as an alternative and it is up to those who use hybrid techniques to make it work. If you purposely ignore hybridphoto and come to APUG to complain then I have interest in your argument. It is a moot point since Sean has set the parameters for APUG and they don't include digital techniques.
This is "Dead Horse" territory.
Long live Ed "Big Daddy" Roth!!
"I don't care about Milwaukee or Chicago." - Yvon LeBlanc
Bill, since we are always off-topic anyway, we can discuss this stuff on the OM-List.
Seriously, I think the most foolish thing we did we did was separate the community into two different forums. This was the equivalent of dividing APUG into APUG-FILM and APUG-DARKROOM. It would please me to no end if we could bring HybridPhoto back into the "gray area" again.
But, alas, what is done is done and nobody asked for my opinion.
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I stirred up things a bit it seems ......
I asked for a bit of understanding of each other, that is something diferent than asking APUG to become hybrid.
Analogue begins with an analogue medium, film, whether made by Kodak, Fuji and so on or hand made.
It starts with an analogue camera, whether it be a Fujifilm QuickSnap or Olympus Trip 35 or what ever upto the refined beauties of the wooden half and full plate camera's of our past.
It ends with a print made to the best posibilies of those who made the photographs onto analogue film, whether it has been made by a lab or by one's selve on either paper thas has been bought or self sensitized.
Not everybody on this forum is blessed with it's own darkroom.
I will have my own darkroom in August again after an absense of 20 years and am looking forward to it. Looking forward to building it into a space of 3x4.5m, looking forward to make my own prints again.
There is a kind of hybrid going on on APUG allready: first you have the members that have an alalogue camera and use a lab for the rest and then there are members that make their own glass plates, even use the wett process and that sensitize the paper they print on themselves.
I admire the old processes and will try them out in the future.
What we, as APUG-ers should do is teatch the youngsters the beauty of analogue and showing them the posibilies of it, instead of biting one's head of because he/she mentions "d****".
And preserve the knowledge about the old processes ofcourse.
One is not better because he/she uses a wett-plate camera, or uses a Leica instead of an Olympus Trip 35 or Pen EE (I have all 3 by the way)
I am a member of hybridphoto.com, a site with little traffic and I feel alternative processes have a more general bit of knowledge, information, etc. that many could find to be of benefit. Sticking hybrid out behind the garage, is limiting both to those who use these processes as well as those who don't. I also happen to be a subscriber to this forum and also continue to support it through the use of the classifieds and donations associated with sales I've made on this site. Additionally I've been supportive of the community by, from time to time, giving stuff away for which I no longer have a need.
Limiting discussions to only those things which have not been discussed and/or decided before would assure the status quo. I don't think I would want to live in a world where slavery was the normal, where women didn't have the right to vote, where folks thought the world was flat, where there was no choice of religion . . . These were tired old arguments that had been beat to death.
I would prefer one address my arguments, rather than lable them.
Sean is the owner of the site and I would say we all are stakeholders in the enterprise. As such, I will continue to discuss things which I feel are worthy of discussion and who knows, perhaps things may change. Change is, after all, a given. I doubt Sean is unable to revisit his decisions or to have dialog about them.
I am of the opinion that the folks who digitize a negative for printing their alternative process images have much to offer to folks on APUG and their use of digital in this one step puts them a heck of alot more in the APUG camp than that of the digital camp. To me, moving them to the hybrid community is a little treating them as step-children, untouchables, second class citizens, etc.
Yes. It would work _so_ perfectly if it was another semi-separate form, à la Français et néerlandais.
Originally Posted by Ken N
If the discussion of that one digital step used in alternatives processes can be limited to just the "Gray Area" in the Alternative forum, I would not be adverse to re-opening that area. But it has been proven time and time again that there are some people who just can't contain themselves and limit their discussions to this one area. They just have to push the limits and post digital topics in other forums where it is not warranted.
So, as far as I am concerned, it is the inability of these few to contain their discussion that have created this dual state of affairs, not the rest of us. Aim your ire and frustrations at them and not the site itself.
Long live Ed "Big Daddy" Roth!!
"I don't care about Milwaukee or Chicago." - Yvon LeBlanc
Any change will come from dialog with Sean and discussion on this site, rather from "yelling" at offenders for past or current misdeeds. Assuming what you say is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt it, all APUGers are being adversely affect by the actions of a few. I would like to see the "Gray Area" be re-opened. In my opinion the hybrid.com site has not been a particularly successful experiment. Bill Barber