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  1. #1

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    Gum Over Pigments, Clays article

    what kind/brand of pigments are being used? I've always used tube watercolors for gum printing and would like to switch to powdered pigments. I get different results with different brands of watercolors, and I'm sure this is no different and would like to start off right.

    Also, what is the technique for spotting alt prints? I've tried and tried with no luck and gave up a while ago, my "spot" always dries down to a different color. Is there a magic ratio of pigment to gum or something? Thanks.

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  2. #2
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    Gumover

    Quote Originally Posted by shinn
    what kind/brand of pigments are being used? I've always used tube watercolors for gum printing and would like to switch to powdered pigments. I get different results with different brands of watercolors, and I'm sure this is no different and would like to start off right.
    I use Winsor and Newton tubes and also Schminke (because I like the name)
    Quote Originally Posted by shinn
    Also, what is the technique for spotting alt prints? I've tried and tried with no luck and gave up a while ago, my "spot" always dries down to a different color. Is there a magic ratio of pigment to gum or something? Thanks.
    Here is my tip-o-the-day. When you mix your gum and pigment, but BEFORE you add the dichromate, dab a little bit of the blend on a 3x5 card which has your printing notes on it (You DO write down what you are doing, don't you?). When you need to spot, just moisten a brush and pick up as much of the pigment from the card as you need to cover the blemish. This should match exactly, and all you need to do is dilute it to cover lighter spots.

    I havent used the powdered pigments yet, but I may start to do so since they are much more economical.

  3. #3

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    Right on Clay I never thought about doing it that way and there seems to be little information on the subject, that I've found anyway.

    Is the "dab" dry? Do you spot the print before or after washing. Dry print or wet? Sorry for needing specifics, but I've got many negatives I'd love to reprint now, with out the spots of course and now I'm all giddy about it.

    So your weighing out the tube colors, I'm not sure why I thought they were powdered but will definately use my scale now.

    And yes I do write everything down and should have mentioned that I'm as color blind as one could possibly imagine and I'm sure this is gonna help. Thanks.

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  4. #4

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    Clay, I have a question that you might be able to answer. While I was visiting with Burkholder I saw that he actually teaches to lay the platinum solution over the color pigment from the printer. Could it be possible to do this with gum? instead of doing the pt/pd first, develop etc, etc. Can you do the gum first, expose, put the pt/pd over the gum, expose and then develop and wash all together? This might help prevent the shrinking with the paper. Which to tell you the truth is the reason I have not tried gum overs yet.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by clay
    I havent used the powdered pigments yet, but I may start to do so since they are much more economical.
    Clay if you want to try the dry pigments, here is a list i drew up for a pastel forum I belong to. One note on dry pigments, make sure they are eniform in particle size. To do that get a mortor and pedstel and grind the pigments until they are the fineness you want.
    Attached Files

  6. #6
    clay's Avatar
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    Hey Aggie,

    Thanks for that file. That'll help if I transition to dry pigments.

  7. #7
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    Terry King swears that platinum over gum is superior to gum over platinum. I've tried it both ways, and I prefer the platinum layer first, if for no other reason that it is easier to register the other coats, and in my opinion, looks a lot better. The gum steps have the effect of filling in a lot of the porosity in the paper, so it also makes the platinum sensitizer a little difficult to soak in. Everybody I know except for Terry does it platinum first, then the gum layers. There are no rules, of course.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by clay
    Terry King swears that platinum over gum is superior to gum over platinum. I've tried it both ways, and I prefer the platinum layer first, if for no other reason that it is easier to register the other coats, and in my opinion, looks a lot better. The gum steps have the effect of filling in a lot of the porosity in the paper, so it also makes the platinum sensitizer a little difficult to soak in. Everybody I know except for Terry does it platinum first, then the gum layers. There are no rules, of course.
    Thanks Clay, I guess I will have to try it one of these days.

  9. #9

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    Is Dan Burkholder making PT prints over inkjet?

    Is this right?: coat your gum/dichromate, expose but not processing it and then recoating it with PT/PD then processing? I'm not sure that any of the PT would get into the paper, I could be wrong though. It may even depend on the color of gum thats used. Also, gum prints tend to have some 3D qualities and they seem thicker before washing, that may affect registration.........? Sounds interesting though, I think you'd get a totally different feel and look to the print this way as well. Definately worth trying.

    As far as shrinking paper, I do it at home while cooking or drinking a beer(s) watching tv. BFK rives, 6-8 sheets at a time. I do this three times: Hot water soak for 2 hours and dry over night, then I size and harden them all at once as well. Now though my third soak will be in Oxalic acid if I plan for gum over. (I'm not sure that I need the oxalic for Ziatype though)

    I also have a question for you Jorge: I read here that you did not have very good luck with ziatype, why is this? I've done only a few to this point (15) and can't say whether its good or bad I know I like what I see so far though. Having done so many Argyrotypes which is also humidity controlled (even moreso) I felt this was the way to go, especially after realizing how nice it is not to do any test strips, not yet anyway. I'm using FAO(A), Potassium Chlorate/FAO(b), LIPD(c) and PT/AU at 5%, were you using Potassium Dichromate? I chose the chlorate version because it is closer to the traditional PT/PD process it will even develop out with Potassium Oxalate.

    Wow thats a long one, sorry.

    Happy Days
    Mark
    You can't be lost if you don't care where you are.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by shinn
    Is Dan Burkholder making PT prints over inkjet?

    Is this right?: coat your gum/dichromate, expose but not processing it and then recoating it with PT/PD then processing? I'm not sure that any of the PT would get into the paper, I could be wrong though. It may even depend on the color of gum thats used. Also, gum prints tend to have some 3D qualities and they seem thicker before washing, that may affect registration.........? Sounds interesting though, I think you'd get a totally different feel and look to the print this way as well. Definately worth trying.

    As far as shrinking paper, I do it at home while cooking or drinking a beer(s) watching tv. BFK rives, 6-8 sheets at a time. I do this three times: Hot water soak for 2 hours and dry over night, then I size and harden them all at once as well. Now though my third soak will be in Oxalic acid if I plan for gum over. (I'm not sure that I need the oxalic for Ziatype though)

    I also have a question for you Jorge: I read here that you did not have very good luck with ziatype, why is this? I've done only a few to this point (15) and can't say whether its good or bad I know I like what I see so far though. Having done so many Argyrotypes which is also humidity controlled (even moreso) I felt this was the way to go, especially after realizing how nice it is not to do any test strips, not yet anyway. I'm using FAO(A), Potassium Chlorate/FAO(b), LIPD(c) and PT/AU at 5%, were you using Potassium Dichromate? I chose the chlorate version because it is closer to the traditional PT/PD process it will even develop out with Potassium Oxalate.

    Wow thats a long one, sorry.

    Happy Days
    Mark
    Yes Mark, although Dan calls them pigment over platinum, the actual procedure is reversed, you print the ink jet print first and then you coat with the platinum. He does this not because he wants to deceive people, but because the registration of the negative is easier to achieve if you print the ink jet portion first, at least this is what I was able to glean from what he showed me. I did not take the workshop, but was only observing while the students did their prints and asking questions, so I am not the most qualified person to comments on this, you can e mail Dan directly, he is very nice and I am sure he will answer your questions.

    The problem with the Zias was the humidity for me, I use a platemaker and I think the heat from the lamp was drying the paper too much. If I tried to leave it a little bit more humid, I ruined the negative. I used the kit sent by B&S with the FAO, etc, etc. To tell you the truth at this point I have the DOP down to a science where I dont need to do test prints, so struggling with Zias does not appeal to me any more.

    See, your shrinking process is what I am trying to avoid, I definitely have no patience for this. Even the pre oxalic acid bath is a PITA for me...lol.....I think I will order some gum and try it the way I am thinking. I am not so much concerned about the absorption as much as I am concerned about the contrast increase or even the lack of reduction of the pt/pd by the dichromate in the gum. Certainly if I was to do the gum, wash it, dry it and re coat with pt/pd, well that would give me the same problem as gum over pt....no? I think if I can save the intermediate wash step before recoating I would like to do some of this, if not...well I will be happy to see your and Clay's prints...

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