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  1. #11
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    If I found chance , I will tone the positive bw films with palladium solution. It consumes less and you will have a transparent palladium print. I am also thinking to bleach the cheapest large format camera pinhole anamorphic 6 x 17 cms. positives and replace the silver with palladium.

    But I defend that there is close visual correlation between underpainting and the toned print or film.
    Autochrome is so successful because it has two layers RGB and BW.
    I posted a thread to make a inkjet printed autochrome , 6 color RGB on Panchromatic mimic under bw print.
    This is the same theory.
    Someone can post process his pictures and print a 1 color underprint and a multi color print over it.
    May be on a melinex film and hang on a light box.
    I still defend my theory when there are two different ambers.

    Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Istanbul

  2. #12
    bsdunek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa Umut Sarac View Post
    In any case, I like this one best. Amber or Umber - don't matter.
    I didn't know that Gray Amber was formed in whales. I think of our amber which is from pine tree pitch. Learn something every day if you pay a little attention.
    Bruce

    Moma don't take my Kodachrome away!
    Oops, Kodak just did!
    For all practical purposes, they've taken Kodak away.


    BruceCSdunekPhotography.zenfolio.com

  3. #13

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    You do mean amber, fossilized tree resin.
    It's harder to find at the Dutch North Sea shore than diamonds. (Just so you know: the first diamond has yet to be found here.)

    When, by the way, have you last found amber gris outside Wikipedia, Marco? When did you last come across a bit of it on the Dutch sea shores?
    Never, right?

  4. #14
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    I watched a tv program last week from north west germany and there were tons of ambers at the shops and they told that amber comes from tides on sands.
    I think if there is amber at North Sea , it might come to the shores of Holland also.
    May be there is no sea shore at your place because its deep from North Sea Barriers.
    May be Frisian Islands have them.
    Go to a jewellry shop and ask where these amber comes from .

  5. #15

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    Amber is not that hard to find on the Baltic coast. East Germany.
    Not found on the other side of Denmark.

    Amber is not used as a pigment.

  6. #16
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    QG,

    Why ? Do you know the reason ? It would be interesting to learn that ! One time I wanted to learn Frisian and Afrikaans , than Polish and Vietnamese than Tibetan.
    I think Dutch is the most interesting sounded language with Vietnamese.
    They are totally reversed sounds when compared with each other.

  7. #17

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    Two reasons:
    - It is far too rare, and thus too expensive.
    - There are enough other perfectly fine pigments, so there is no need.

  8. #18

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    Back to the issue of underpainting--underprinting (leaving the amber/umber issue aside.) Platinum/palladium prints are beautiful on their own. I love the look and feel of platinum/palladium prints. They have a richness and depth that only a few other processes can match. Nevertheless, platinum/palladium prints can can also be enhanced. There are several printers here on Apug and the Large Format Forum who use the pt/pl print as the starting point. Check out Kerik's work with gum over platinum. I took an excellent workshop on gum over platinum from him and his prints are truly wonderful. One or multiple layers of gum over platinum can, in the hands of someone like Kerik, greatly add to the presence of the print. Unfortunately, you really have to see the prints to appreciate the difference, a scan shown on a computer screen doesn't do the prints justice.

    On the LFF forum, there is a thread on posting alternative process prints. One printer is using pl/pt as a base print and then printing subtile ink jet colors over the base. I haven't see the actual prints, but the images look very good on the screen.

    I have also seen cyanotype over and under pt/pl prints. I personally do not like the blue of cyanotype mixed with the pl/pt, but YMMV.

    There is a printer in New Mexico who does tri-color gum over pl/pt. (I'd give you the reference, but it was bookmarked on my old computer.)

    I have also seen hand colored pl/pt prints, which meet with varying degrees of success, depending on the skill of the artist.

    I guess my point is that pt/pl prints can be beautiful on there own. But, they also can be the first step in further artistic exploration.

  9. #19
    Marco B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q.G. View Post
    When, by the way, have you last found amber gris outside Wikipedia, Marco? When did you last come across a bit of it on the Dutch sea shores?
    Never, right?
    * When was the last time you saw a sperm whale near the Dutch coast?
    * When was the last time you personally found resin based fossilized amber ANYWHERE on the globe?
    * When was the last time you personally found gold or silver?
    * When was the last time you personally found Juncus Pygmaeus (Dwergrus in Dutch), a plant species on the red list no. 1 (most endangered) of the Dutch Endangered Species listing?
    I did in 1997 on Vlieland! , I heard later that it had pissed off one of my former Biology teachers at University, as he had visited the same place, but missed it

    The fact that we personally don't find something which is known to be rare, does not mean nobody does, nor that experts who actually know where to look, and know how it is supposed to look, will not be able to find it.

    Just as another nice example:
    * And when was the last time you found a Woolly Mammoth bone on the Dutch coast?

    Yet, a fact known by few people, is that the Dutch part of the North Sea has yielded one of the largest and most extensive collections of Mammoth and other Ice Age animal bones. Fishermen almost daily drag something from the bottom in their nets. This is NO joke!

    As a consequence, one of the main experts on Woolly Mammoths, Dick Mol, is Dutch!

    So never assume something is wrong because you may not have heard of it, even if it requires digging in something as Wikipedia

    Another interesting fact: ever noticed all these small pieces of rounded black "wood" lying on the Dutch coast? They almost look like lumps of oil, yet they are thousands of years old. They come from old eroded peat layers, formed in the area where the Woolly Mammoths roamed: the North Sea before it was flooded after the last ice age... I love these historic things!

    Quote Originally Posted by Q.G. View Post
    Two reasons:
    - It is far too rare, and thus too expensive.
    - There are enough other perfectly fine pigments, so there is no need.
    Just as a reminder:

    - Ambergris or grey amber is a knead-able semi solid substance formed in the guts of sperm whales and occasionally beaches on shores. It has NO function in painting, it just, probably mostly historically, had a function in the cosmetics industry.

    - Amber as we "normally" know it (as a gem stone), is fossilized hardened resin from trees. It is NO color pigment (it is transparent as you all know ), and it's only use in painting was as a varnish, mostly replaced by damar and synthetic varnishes today.

    - Umber is a mineral - clay-based - brown color pigment used in oil and other paints. It is valued for its natural transparency, and this is one of the main reasons it is found in many historical oil paintings, to achieve the "luminosity" Mustaffa was writing about.
    Last edited by Marco B; 10-27-2010 at 04:13 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    My website

    "The nineteenth century began by believing that what was reasonable was true, and it wound up by believing that what it saw a photograph of, was true." - William M. Ivins Jr.

    "I don't know, maybe we should disinvent color, and we could just shoot Black & White." - David Burnett in 1978

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  10. #20

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    Marco,

    Calm down!

    Just because you think that things that are rare do still exits doesn't mean that they are not rare.
    Your Juncus example shows how things are.

    Amber is not found on the Dutch coast. Your chances of finding your amber gris are much greater. Yet you won't find that either.
    But what if someone somewhere sometime found a bit of it, just like you did with that Juncus? Would that be enough for the old masters? Or van Gogh's ink? Would you fiding that Juncus on Vlieland mean that it's in every garden center for us all to get?

    And re what amber: it's quite clear what amber is meant, and that amber (not umber) is meant.


    Yes, the North Sea has not been that long. And lots of land animal fossiles are dredged up by trawlers (on either side of the North Sea, by the way).
    You can also find lots of fossilised jaw teeth, by the way.

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