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  1. #1
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Vermeer , Is unde printing necessary ?

    Its been a while for posting ideas and questioning techniques on excellent 16th century paintings and to use these techniques.
    I always asked myself why old Dutch Italian and Spanish paintings and the others have magnificient smooth tones and extreme naturalistic tones.
    So as I did many times , I researched the internet again and I reexamined the Vermeer sites.
    I think I found the answer , it is dead painting or underpainting.
    I will load few new vermeer like painting process pictures at this thread and Everyone will see the light.
    I read and researched on many different chemicals for archaeology and I discovered that Holland and North Germany Sea Coast is extremelly rich with amber.
    There are hundreds of shops at sea coast and they sell the tourists smallest to biggest amber pieces and jewellery.
    Tides are very important and When the Sea goes there are hundreds of ambers stucks to the sands and collectors collect with hand.
    I read Van Gogh Museum makes research on van gogh drawing inks and they compares the ink with many other same age drawings inks.
    I think the yellowish brown colors of Van Gogh comes from the amber.

    Well , lets return to underpainting process. Painter first prepares his ground and than draw the first lines and than he paints the paint with amber , black and grey color.
    This is the balance of the light , colors and the details.
    Than he paints the backgrounds with light colors and than he put the strong colors finally.

    I think We like the pt pd process very much because its perfect underpainting and waits to be colored after the first print. This is a big sentence but I believe this.
    Than the glazing comes and it smooth the painting . I wrote few threads before.

    Lets put the pictures and discuss.

    Best ,

    Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Istanbul
    Last edited by Mustafa Umut Sarac; 10-22-2010 at 10:59 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #2
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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  3. #3
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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  5. #5
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    ...what?
    The camera is the most incidental element of photography.

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    "What?" indeed.

    By the way, if your research has shown that "that Holland [...] Sea Coast is extremelly rich with amber" you may want to go over your notes and see what else is wrong too.
    (And i could point out a few more things in your post.)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q.G. View Post
    "What?" indeed.

    By the way, if your research has shown that "that Holland [...] Sea Coast is extremelly rich with amber" you may want to go over your notes and see what else is wrong too.
    (And i could point out a few more things in your post.)
    Mustafa's posts can be a bit confusing, but his remarks about Amber don't seem so wrong. I learn something surprising and new each day too here on APUG.

    "Amber: kostbaar darmproduct
    Een zeldzaam en heel bijzonder produkt was grijze amber of 'ambergrijs'. Dit is een stevige, kneedbare substantie die gevonden wordt in het darmkanaal van sommige potvissen; het komt voor in slechts één tot twee procent van de dieren. Het ontstaan van potvisamber is nog niet geheel opgehelderd. Een klomp amber is opgebouwd uit concentrische lagen. In het midden zit meestal een (deel van) een inktvissnavel, die zich kennelijk in de darmwand heeft vastgezet. Waarschijnlijk reageert de darm hierop met de vorming van amber, waardoor het irriterende voorwerp wordt ingekapseld. Een klomp amber weegt gewoonlijk zo'n honderd gram tot een kilo, maar er zijn stukken van vierhonderd kilo gevonden. Amber wordt tenslotte door de potvis uitgescheiden; reeds in oude tijden was het bekend als aanspoelsel op (sub)tropische stranden. Oude amber heeft een muskusgeur. Men kan het smelten tot een chocoladeachtige substantie. Het is nog steeds zeer kostbaar en wordt gebruikt in de parfumindustrie, omdat vluchtige (geur)stoffen zich goed aan amber hechten. Gefortuneerde lieden droegen vroeger wel een klein bolletje geparfumeerde amber in een zilveren houdertje, een zogenaamd amberappeltje. Tegenwoordig wordt het ook gebruikt voor het vervaardigen van homeopatische geneesmiddelen."

    Quick and dirty translation:
    "Grey amber is a rare and precious substance formed in the guts of whales, especially sperm-whale. It is a knead-able solid substance formed in the gut, usually around some remain of a squid and maybe as a consequence of irritation of the gut, with pieces of 100-1000gram common, but pieces as large as 400kg have been found. It is finally expelled by the sperm-whale, and is known to strand on beaches. The substance is used in the cosmetics industry, as volatile fragrances attach to it.

    Also see this Wikipedia link:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmbergrisHowever

    *** However *** looking through all this, Mustafa, I think you confuse "Ambergris" as primarily used in cosmetics, with resin based "Amber" from trees (see this Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber), as used in painting. That is two very distinct different products, that only share the name "Amber"...

    About the underpainting: Yes, you are right that the luminosity of Dutch and Flemming paintings is much attributable to the underpainting or dead layer. In combination with oil-paint's characteristic to become more transparent with time, and the use of non-opaque pigments like umber (NO: not amber, umber is a natural mineral based color pigment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umber), it creates a special luminosity effect.

    I have always felt that chemical toning (sepia or selenium) of silver gelatine prints, does something similar, and adds "luminosity" to silver gelatine prints, although I doubt if the effect can be attributed to a similar "transparency" and "layered" image. If you have never done it Mustafa, I would recommend you to try and tone some silver gelatine prints to learn and appreciate the effect.
    Last edited by Marco B; 10-27-2010 at 04:13 AM. Click to view previous post history.
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    "The nineteenth century began by believing that what was reasonable was true, and it wound up by believing that what it saw a photograph of, was true." - William M. Ivins Jr.

    "I don't know, maybe we should disinvent color, and we could just shoot Black & White." - David Burnett in 1978

    "Analog is chemistry + physics, digital is physics + math, which ones did you like most?"

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    Marco B's Avatar
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    And as I pointed out in my last edits of the above post, I also think you may be confusing the mineral color pigment Umber with Amber. The first was used in the dead layer as part of the color and paint mixture, as Umber is a well known oil paint pigment, while Amber resin as far as I know was only, and rarely, used as part of a top glazing of paintings. But even there damar resin is, and was, much more common than amber.
    My website

    "The nineteenth century began by believing that what was reasonable was true, and it wound up by believing that what it saw a photograph of, was true." - William M. Ivins Jr.

    "I don't know, maybe we should disinvent color, and we could just shoot Black & White." - David Burnett in 1978

    "Analog is chemistry + physics, digital is physics + math, which ones did you like most?"

  10. #10
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Thank you again Marco , your posts have been always a lifeline.
    When it is difficult to buy bread at the morning , I left the experiments to other APUGers.
    Well , You are right , I might make a larger research. Thank you correcting me.
    In Turkish , amber is the only word and no other word to explain others.
    Like silikon , a plastic and the crystal.

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