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  1. #1
    donbga's Avatar
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    VDB Paper staining

    Hi everyone,

    I've run into a problem with severe paper staing while printing VDBs that are toned in gold toner and palladium toner.

    Also I'm using Ferric Citrate to addjust the contrast of the sensitizer. 9 parts standard VDB solution - 1 part Feric Citrate solution.

    The palladium toned VDB printed lost the stain when placed in a Permawash immediately after the fixer. The gold toned print was left in a water bath after fixing before being put through the Permawash bath.

    You can look at the attachments to see the difference in the paper stain. The very dark print was levels adjusted in PS to show the paper stain clearly. The stain is very obvious when looking at the print under white light. The stain is lost somewhat in the scan.

    I'm very perplexed about this. Any suggestions.

    Thanks,

    Don Bryant

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by donbga
    Hi everyone,

    I've run into a problem with severe paper staing while printing VDBs that are toned in gold toner and palladium toner.


    I'm very perplexed about this. Any suggestions.

    Thanks,

    Don Bryant
    This could be a paper problem, a toner problem or a wash problem. My first suggestion would be to increase the length or efficiency of the first wash to get rid of as much of the residual silver nitrate as possible. The silver nitrate could combine with the gold or palladium to cause the stain. You will definitely get the stain with selenium toning even with just trace amounts of silver nitrate left in the paper, but it can also happen with gold and palladium if there is enough of the silver nitrate left in the paper when you tone before fixing.

    Sandy

  3. #3

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    I'm wondering what kind of paper youíre using and if you've tried others? Iíve predominately used Platine with VDB.

    I too have had some difficulties with toning VDB in PD and I've wondered if: since some papers don't like or aren't suitable for PT/PD would the same hold true for toning a VDB on that kind of paper?

    With VDB I always tone after fixing, and add some sodium Carbonate which decreases bleach back I feel better making sure all the silver is gone and I can have the light on while toning (Iím so colorblind that I need the light)

    Iím really curious why the gold is staining though; in my experience it seems to bleach the print.

    Happy Days
    Mark
    You can't be lost if you don't care where you are.

  4. #4

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    Another Question...

    What toning formulas are you using? I've had nothing but troubles with just the Metal salt and Citric acid and found the Ansco blue toner to be the best for my working conditions.

    Happy Days
    Mark
    You can't be lost if you don't care where you are.

  5. #5
    donbga's Avatar
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    Mark,

    I've been trying some new papers for VDB printing Lenox and Stonehenge. Here is my work flow.

    1) Double coat paper with puddle pusher, each coat is air dried by fan.
    2) Sensitizer is 9 parts standard VDB sol., 1 part Ferric Citrate sol.
    3) Negative - In camera 8x10 old Tri-X Pro processed in HC-110.
    4) Exposure - 5 min. BL tubes
    5) Process - 10 minutes in 1% citric acid, 10 minutes running water rinse. Toner: palladium toner formula and #2 Gold Toner as outlined in S.King's article on kallitype printing on Unblinking Eye before fixing.
    6) 2 min. water rinse before fixing.
    7) Fixer: alkaline sodium thiosulfate 3% for 2 min.
    8) Water soak after fixing except for palladium toned print that went directly into Perma Wash bath.
    9) Water wash for 30 min.
    10) Air dried on screens.

    The stain becomes evident after toning. In the next round I'll brush coat with a magic brush and not tone before or after fixing.

    Don

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by donbga
    Mark,

    I've been trying some new papers for VDB printing Lenox and Stonehenge. Here is my work flow.

    1) Double coat paper with puddle pusher, each coat is air dried by fan.
    2) Sensitizer is 9 parts standard VDB sol., 1 part Ferric Citrate sol.
    3) Negative - In camera 8x10 old Tri-X Pro processed in HC-110.
    4) Exposure - 5 min. BL tubes
    5) Process - 10 minutes in 1% citric acid, 10 minutes running water rinse. Toner: palladium toner formula and #2 Gold Toner as outlined in S.King's article on kallitype printing on Unblinking Eye before fixing.
    6) 2 min. water rinse before fixing.
    7) Fixer: alkaline sodium thiosulfate 3% for 2 min.
    8) Water soak after fixing except for palladium toned print that went directly into Perma Wash bath.
    9) Water wash for 30 min.
    10) Air dried on screens.

    The stain becomes evident after toning. In the next round I'll brush coat with a magic brush and not tone before or after fixing.

    Don
    Don,

    I have used both Lenox and Stonhenge with VDB without the staining you describe. In fact, the only thing that you do that is a bit outside of my procedures with VDB is the very long wash in citric acid and running water, 10 minutes in each if I understand your correctly. I usually add a bit of vinegar or dilute acetic acid to the first wash/development, but limit wash time to no more than 3-4 minutes. My first inclination was that you did not wash/develop long enought, but on second thought maybe there is something in your water at this time of year that, in combination with the long wash, leeches into the paper and contributes to the stain.

    So perhaps you could work backward. Just develop the print for 2-3 minutes in a tray of distilled water to which you add a few ml of vingegar or dilute acetic acid, then tone, fix and evaluate the results.

    Sandy

  7. #7
    donbga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanking
    Don,

    I have used both Lenox and Stonhenge with VDB without the staining you describe. In fact, the only thing that you do that is a bit outside of my procedures with VDB is the very long wash in citric acid and running water, 10 minutes in each if I understand your correctly. I usually add a bit of vinegar or dilute acetic acid to the first wash/development, but limit wash time to no more than 3-4 minutes. My first inclination was that you did not wash/develop long enought, but on second thought maybe there is something in your water at this time of year that, in combination with the long wash, leeches into the paper and contributes to the stain.

    So perhaps you could work backward. Just develop the print for 2-3 minutes in a tray of distilled water to which you add a few ml of vingegar or dilute acetic acid, then tone, fix and evaluate the results.

    Sandy
    Good suggestions Sandy, I'll give it a whirl!

    Don

  8. #8
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    Don,
    I realize that this is an old thread but can you please tell me what became of your staining problem? I'm asking because I'm now having the same problem of very bad staining with my gold/thiourea toned VDB prints.

    The staining appears during the final wash. It seems worse toward the centre of the print and clear around the edges of the coated area.

    I use a citric acid clearing bath for 3 minutes, then wash for a 3 minutes, then gold/thiourea toner (8 minutes), then wash, then fixer for 4 minutes and then hypoclear (2 minutes), then final wash (30 minutes).
    I have been using Stonehenge paper. I also just started using a Richardsen 'magic' brush today, which was new today to my process (I have previously been using a puddle pusher).
    At first I thought that the paper may have been not dry enough but longer drying times after coating didn't help.

    I have been making palladium toned VDB's on Stonehenge paper for quite a while and have never had this problem. I started with the gold toner in the last month.
    it was quite a frustrating day!

    thanks
    david

  9. #9
    Jim Noel's Avatar
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    I wonder if people are re-using the gold toner, or using it one-shot.
    I tone my VDB's with gold/thiourea and have never hada staining problem on any paper. I use the toner as a one-shot toner so that it is fresh for each print.
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Films NOT Dead - Just getting fixed![/FONT]

  10. #10
    davido's Avatar
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    hi jim

    I'm also using as one-shot but getting staining. I've started using 3 acid clearing baths of two minutes each and then wash for 3 minutes. This is much better but there is still a slight discoloration in the highlights (ie.it's not completely clearing). Platine is much better than Stonehenge for clearing. I am also making the toner at half strength gold chloride as it's supposed to tone down the purple.
    Looking back at older prints I toned with Palladium, I can now see the same slight dis-coloration. they are all printed on Stonehenge paper and, I guess, were not cleared long enough.

    david



 

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