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  1. #11
    ic-racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    It sounds like tremendous underexposure .
    My thoughts also.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    It sounds like tremendous underexposure of the prints to me. Are you test stripping first, or just using the same times and apertures you were using for your tiny prints? You need to increase the time and/or aperture significantly with large prints. Add in the fact that lith exposures can already be long, and you are looking at some pretty long exposures at that size. Sometimes I need to expose 2 minutes just to get an 11x14 looking good. Extrapolate that up to 20x24 using the rule of thumb for making larger prints, and it would be 8 minutes of exposure, not factoring in reciprocity.
    Dear Everyone,

    I'm not a dumbass. I've mural printed on roll paper that was 3ft by 16ft long using various negatives. Those exposure times were about 3 1/2 minutes. I understand that I must account for a new exposure every time I move the enlarger. Thats part of the printing process, and of my traditional black and white prints I have had a few of them shown in local galleries. It is not a problem of underexposure.

    Enlarging the image to fit on the 20x24 paper I proceeded to test strip with a piece of Oriental VC 11x14 and Oriental VC 20x24. I exposed them side to side and developed them in the same tray at the same time. The 11x14 test would lith fine, the 20x24 would not. Even when I overexposed the image by many times, the 11x14 would turn black and the 20x24 would not behave the same way though hinting at an overexposed image rather than a correctly exposed image. I monitored the water temperature carefully with exposure times of 70seconds developing for 8-14 minutes in 80 degree water at the dilution of 1:9. The Arista developer recommends dilution of 1:24 but even at 1:15 development times would be 15-20 minutes, and much longer if the water dropped below 70, so I stuck with a strong dilution.

    Thank you all for your suggestions but please only reply if you have experience with the Lith process and might be able to share some trouble shooting experience with it. I really don't understand why the two papers are behaving differently and it caught me off guard so now I'm in a time crunch. They are both Oriental VC ordered from Freestyle at the same time. I'm looking forward to trying different paper and probably a different brand of developer so if anyone has printed with the Lith process at size 20x24, please let me know what materials you used!

    -Rhea

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Mattking - I've considered printing on the smaller paper to make up the large image, but that would completely change my concept and presentation for the show. When the negative is enlarged it still prints fine on the smaller paper, its just that the paper ordered from the same store at the same time in the bigger dimension won't work. They must make a different emulsion for that size.
    Rhea:

    I must have been unclear.

    What I was suggesting to you is that you try printing an 8x10 portion of the 20x24 sheet using the same aperture, time and developer as you may have used for successful 8 x 10 lith prints. If that portion of the larger sheet worked fine, you would know that the problem arises because of the change in magnification (and light intensity?), rather than the paper itself.

    As I now understand that you were previously having success with 11 x 14 sheets, it may make more sense to try the experiment with 10 x 12 portions of the 20 x 24 sheets.
    Last edited by MattKing; 03-20-2011 at 10:45 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  4. #14
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Enlarging the image to fit on the 20x24 paper I proceeded to test strip with a piece of Oriental VC 11x14 and Oriental VC 20x24. I exposed them side to side and developed them in the same tray at the same time. The 11x14 test would lith fine, the 20x24 would not. Even when I overexposed the image by many times, the 11x14 would turn black and the 20x24 would not behave the same way though hinting at an overexposed image rather than a correctly exposed image. I monitored the water temperature carefully with exposure times of 70seconds developing for 8-14 minutes in 80 degree water at the dilution of 1:9. The Arista developer recommends dilution of 1:24 but even at 1:15 development times would be 15-20 minutes, and much longer if the water dropped below 70, so I stuck with a strong dilution.
    Well, if that is what you did, then you have already identified the problem. With simultaneous exposure and development, the 11x14 works, and the 20x24 does not. There is a difference in the two batches of paper. Are they of different ages?

    Have you tried making a standard print on both papers to see if you can get identical results? Perhaps one of the batches has experienced some heat damage.

    I would contact the manufacturer.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

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  5. #15
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    Quick question, what lith films are available at the moment?
    If you are the big tree, we are the small axe

  6. #16
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by holmburgers View Post
    Quick question, what lith films are available at the moment?
    Any film can be used for lith printing, even color film.

    As for "litho" (graphic arts) films, there is some Arista and some Ultrafine, and perhaps others. The Arista and the Ultrafine could even possibly be the same stuff in a different package. I am not sure.

    But litho film has nothing to do with lith printing. Lith printing just uses regular photo paper in modified graphic arts halftone developer. That is, when used as designed (on litho film, not on photo paper), the developer is supposed to produce either maximum density or no density at all, since with halftones, the appearance of continuous tone is achieved through the use of dark dots on a light substrate, or vice versa.

    In lith printing, you dilute the developer to slow it down, and stop the print before the developer takes it too far. This is after you have baked the print with exposure enough that it would be pretty much be all dark if processed in a normal print developer. Because all of the detail in the original neg has thus been transferred to the latent image, the slooooowly working development in an inherently high contrast developer lets you use both exposure and development together time to control the amount of detail and contrast you get. It is actually very similar to working with the Zone System on a sheet of film.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 03-21-2011 at 12:34 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  7. #17
    holmburgers's Avatar
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    Wow, I honestly did not know that. Thank you for clarifying the distinction there.

    I've found some on Ultrafine's website, but can't find anything of the sort on Freestyle or B&H.
    If you are the big tree, we are the small axe

  8. #18
    Dan Henderson's Avatar
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    The only help that I can offer is to relate an experience I had awhile back: I was getting lith prints on Fomatone 8x10 paper exactly as I wanted. I then printed the same negative on Fomatone 11x14 paper, but to accommodate the larger tray required I doubled the developer and water that I used for 8x10. The larger prints did not have the warm highlight tones, and I needed to adjust the developer strength.

    By the way, I doubt that anyone here thinks you are a dumb ass. Most of us have had enough things go sideways on us to not make that kind of judgment of others!


    web site: Dan Henderson, Photographer.com

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    I am not anti-digital. I am pro-film.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    By the way, I doubt that anyone here thinks you are a dumb ass. Most of us have had enough things go sideways on us to not make that kind of judgment of others!
    My thoughts also. I never thougth Rhea was a dumb ass, but neither am I. I do have experience in lithprinting, but have also struggled with unwilling papers/developers. Next time I share my thoughts with someone, I'll ask for their I.Q. first. Wouldn,t want to insult someone.

    There is more than one reference to be found on the web about Oriental VC FB not lithing, after a formulation change somewhere around 2008.

    Jaap Jan

  10. #20
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    I thought the OP was referring to same paper , same chemical, just huge increase in magnification.

    If it is a different paper, well in my experience some papers just don't work as expected.
    I stopped using Oriental G4 in the 90's because of the emulsion change so I cannot comment on the current version of Oriental paper.

    But if it is the same paper then it is gross underexposure.
    Yesterday I was making lith prints. 30 x30 mural and 4 different 20 x24.
    Had one negative a bit heavier than the others on the smaller time, and with a concentrated solution, heavy flash I was still 7 minutes in exposure and a 2 minute burn , with hot dev to the side to sponge on.

    Sometimes its not easy.

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