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  1. #1
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    1 gram Palladium Chloride , How many 6x17 positive does it tone ?

    Hello there ,

    I am turning around making a 6x17 camera , develop films positive and tone with palladium .

    I found BS sells 1 grams palladium chloride for 28 dollars.

    How much solution I can make from it and how ?

    Do I need to use small Paterson tank and how can I fill the tank with only solution of 1 gram ?

    Thank you ,

    Umut

  2. #2
    Vlad Soare's Avatar
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    What toner formula are you planning to use?

    I can't seem to find a palladium toner formula suited to gelatin silver images. All I can find are toners for colloidal silver prints (kallitypes, vandykes, etc.). I think they should work fine with gelatin silver films/prints, but you'll need a much higher concentration. I'd venture to say roughly about ten times higher, though this is just a wild guess.

  3. #3
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Hello Vlad ,

    I have no formula , I am starting from economy point and easy availability. But I had no idea to use 10 times more. I am thinking to tone the films , slide bw films. I always prefer most poison free formula and I have no idea about them. Can you help more ?

    Thank you ,

    Umut

  4. #4
    Vlad Soare's Avatar
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    The 10x factor is just a rough guess. In colloidal silver prints (vandyke, kallitypes, salt prints, etc.) the silver particles are extremely fine and easily accessible (because there's no gelatin), so they're very fast and easily attacked by the toner. On the other hand, in silver gelatin prints and films the silver particles are much bigger, and they are also protected by the gelatin. That's why silver gelatin images need stronger toners (or colloidal silver images need weaker toners - it depends on how you look at it).
    I have made some vandykes and noticed that solutions are usually diluted about ten times more than their gelatin silver equivalents. For instance, fixer is about 2-2.5% sodium thiosulfate (as opposed to 25% for films and silver halide papers). Selenium toner must be diluted at least 1+200 (as opposed to the usual 1+20) to work properly. A gold toner designed for silver halide papers can work fine with vandyke when diluted 1+10.
    So, I guess that in the absence of more concrete and specific data about palladium toners we could consider a 10x factor an acceptable starting point.

    Most palladium toner formulae for kallitypes seem to require sodium or potassium chloropalladite, but I've also found one based on palladium chloride:

    citric acid 5g
    5% sol. palladium chloride 5ml
    water to make 1l

    If my math is right, 5ml of a 5% solution contain 0.25g of palladium chloride. In other words, 0.25g of palladium chloride will make one liter of working strength toner for colloidal prints.
    Now, if we assume that gelatin silver images require toner concentrations ten times higher, then 2.5g of palladium chloride will make one liter of working strength toner for films and silver halide papers, so 1g will make 400ml of working strength toner.
    A stainless steel developing tank needs approximately 400 ml to completely cover a 120 reel. So I think the answer to your question is yes, 1g of palladium chloride will probably be enough to tone medium format films.
    Paterson tanks are bigger. I believe they need about 500ml for one 120 reel.

    But I must stress that these are just assumptions. I'm just thinking aloud. I have never used palladium toners, neither for kallitypes nor for silver halide prints.

    But what exactly are you trying to achieve? If you're after stability and the brown color, you can get both with a sulfide toner. Sepia-toned negatives/slides/prints are as permanent as palladium-toned ones for all practical purposes. Sepia toners are also very flexible, allowing you to get almost any shade of brown you could think of. They're also cheap. So why palladium?
    Last edited by Vlad Soare; 04-15-2011 at 02:50 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  5. #5
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Vlad ,

    Thank you very much for your detailed answer and analysis. You and I come from same geography - We are neighbors at Black Sea - and We understand each other better. There is a saying in turkish , if you will drown in the sea , drown in the ocean. If I have to select one , I vote for palladium . But I did saw sepia toned papers and they are more orange not more brown and black. I think sepia tones have too much yellow and red in the mix. I love cooler tones like the tones of 60s Ektachrome Skins high frequency smallest size , black noise grain. I think Palladium have Van Dyke or Ivory Brown nature and I love it very much.

    I want to ask two more questions if you excuse me. How will I prepare palladium solution when I recieve 1 gram powder. Is it about mixing with water ?

    And how many 6x17 positive approximately I can tone with this solution.

    Thank you very much and Best wishes to Carpadia Mountains.

    Umut

    Istanbul

  6. #6
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    And Vlad ,

    What would be the heat of solution when I started to mix palladium chloride in ?

    What would be the heat of final solution when I dip the film inside and how many minutes does it need the film stay inside of the solution.

    Do I need to wash the film with water after toning ? Do I need a fixer ?

    Thank you ,

    Umut

  7. #7
    Vlad Soare's Avatar
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    Hi Umut,

    We're indeed almost neighbors, and we have much in common since the times when we were actual neighbors at the Danube. The Romanian culture has been strongly influenced by Turks during centuries of interactions, and the influences are still evident today, mostly in our language, but also in lifestyle, business practices, cuisine, and several other areas of our culture.

    Unfortunately, I can't help you any further. I have never used any palladium toner and have never mixed one. I also have no idea of the total capacity of the solution.
    Palladium chloride is hard to dissolve in water, though I believe that if you use hot water, agitate a lot and leave it overnight it will sooner or later dissolve.
    Personally, I would try to buy it in solution. See here, for instance. The price seems quite good, too. 23 dollars for 100ml of 5% solution is much better than 28 dollars for 1g of powder, not to mention that all the work is already done for you.

    The toning time is determined visually. Tone until you like the color. Try it first on a piece of scrap film.
    There's no need to fix the film after toning, because the toner doesn't contain any silver solvent. Just wash it and hang it to dry.

    I'm sorry I can't be of more help. I've never done this. Hopefully someone who has made kallitypes and has some experience with palladium toners will step in.

    Sepia toned prints can be anything from yellowish orange to deep brown. You can get almost any shade of brown, particularly if you combine it with selenium. I recommend you get Tim Rudman's book, which has been reprinted and is available from Silverprint (incidentally, Silverprint's 100 pounds minimum amount for international orders doesn't apply for this book - you can buy it alone if you want). It's a great resource, and it also has a chapter dedicated to the toning of films. If you read this book you'll be amazed by how flexible sepia toners can be.
    Last edited by Vlad Soare; 04-16-2011 at 09:21 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #8
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Dear Vlad ,

    You told the most important part , Thank you.

    I am aware of Romania since 11 years old from a comics book which tells a story about a Castle at Carpadia and an death opera Singer Stella appear at the castle at night time and sing a aria.

    My first tent was a Romanian Soviet one with a Romanian back pack , both traveled the entire south and west with me. And there is Romanian Bazaar at Istanbul , you could buy Kievs to industrial parts there.

    Danube , blue Danube , I found a Austrian pdf file which contains two milimeters thick scan of entire river with a river ship attached scanner. I traveled with zooming in to this file and traveled the all river.

    Yes brother , I hope We meet in Turkey or Romania . If you want to visit here , send me a pm , I send you many english Tourist guide books and may be You stay at our home.

    See you later ,

    Umut

  9. #9
    Vlad Soare's Avatar
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    Thank you, I'd love that. I do have plans to visit Turkey, though I don't think it will happen this year. Maybe next year. My dream is to board a ship somewhere on the Danube and to travel to Istanbul across the Black Sea. I don't know if that's still possible nowadays, though.
    Likewise, if you want to visit Romania please let me know, and I will be happy to meet you and to show you around.



 

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