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  1. #11
    holmburgers's Avatar
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    Is this the stuff you're referring to PE? http://www.inkjetart.com/canvas.html It's not CA, but Utah. It says "UltraStable is a Trademark of UltraStable Color Systems, Inc", so it is the same stuff.

    I had no idea this was available. I wonder if it's identical stuff with new marketing, or has it been optimized for inkjet printing? Very interesting.
    If you are the big tree, we are the small axe

  2. #12

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    great find H

    sorry for showing my ignorance
    what is the difference between this sort of "ultrastable" process
    and the dye transfer process, both seem to be uber-stable ..

    - john
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  3. #13
    holmburgers's Avatar
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    Thanks J!

    Well, it seems that nothing is more stable than a carbon print because it is actually pigment trapped inside the gelatin. You can think of it like making a photograph with painter's pigments, and these substances can be incredibly stable. Vermeer's paintings haven't faded for 350 years!

    Dyes on the other hand aren't as stable, and will fade overtime. Dye-transfer prints do have excellent dark storage properties, but their light-fastness just isn't as great. Acid dyes, which are used in dye-transfer, are quite stable compared to, say, basic dyes, which are quite fugitive in short amounts of time (yet more brilliant!). So it depends on the specific dye being utilized, and tradeoffs are made between hue, light-fastness and their imbibition properties.

    I'm no expert, but I think you could hang an UltraStable print outside, facing the sun and it wouldn't appreciably fade in your lifetime. (this could be a bit of an exaggeration... I'm taking poetic license. . . but maybe not)
    Last edited by holmburgers; 05-10-2011 at 03:07 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    If you are the big tree, we are the small axe

  4. #14

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    thanks for the insights H -

    my uncle used to make dye transfers back in the 60s ..
    and has some in his home that have been on the wall since they were made ..
    they get outdoor light, over head light &C since it was made ( 40+ years ago ) ...
    and they looks like they were made ... last night ...
    i was always told that dye transfer was the most long lasting of all the color processes ...
    it is good to know there are others that are as ( if not more ) stable -

    john
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  5. #15
    holmburgers's Avatar
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    That's great for me to hear as well, about the DT prints. I guess it's a case where "less stable" is still pretty damn stable.

    Here's some quantitative info from http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/..._HiRes_v1a.pdf page 4,

    "Even though all types of color prints are subject to light fading, grouping every type of color print together and stating simply that "all colors fade" ignores the very large differences in dye stability among currently available products. Some materials are much more stable than others. As shown by UltraStable Permanent Color prints and Polaroid Permanent-Color prints, it is possible to make color prints with high-stability color pigments that, in a practical sense, do not fade at all: that is, under normal conditions of display, the prints will probably retain excellent quality color images for five hundred years or more."

    Charles Berger developed the Polaroid Permanent Color Print process as well, which I believe has nothing to do with dye-diffusion like most polaroid materials, but is basically the same as UltraStable(?). I'd be interested to know the differences.
    If you are the big tree, we are the small axe

  6. #16
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    The data from Wilhelm must be considered from many aspects. He uses 500 FC for fading in most cases just like Fuji, but Kodak uses 100 FC, which is the level measured in most homes as an average of 10,000 or so tests run world wide. This level difference represents reciprocity in fading which is just as real as speed or contrast reciprocity.

    Also, note that the figure of faded transparencies in a Florida airport are not shown in color but it states that they have faded substantially. Do we take that on faith or can we see the original color shot of that display....

    Do not take everything from Wilhelm at face value, there are many points of view on this subject. Not least of which, I might mention, relate to air pollution effects and Ozone / UV radiation levels.

    Bottom line is that we will not know for sure for about 200 years.

    PE

  7. #17
    holmburgers's Avatar
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    Well, all things being equal, can't we assess with some certainty in what order these different processes will fade? That is, we can't say how long it'll last, but we can certainly say that (a) will outlast (b).
    If you are the big tree, we are the small axe

  8. #18
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    Not really. We have no evidence that the plastic support used for UltraStable will hold up. Millions of $$ went into the R&D to solve the RC problems. I have no idea regarding the stability of the UltraStable. An accelerated test is often not accurate due to oxygen penetration and other effects that are related to the "reciprocity" that I mentioned earlier.

    PE

  9. #19
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Taking a patent or writing a book like PE guarantees your presence for next 200 years.
    But trying to print ultrastable print when you are not a artist for next 200 years could turn them to toilet paper.

  10. #20
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    will add my .02 in here. The late Gordon Chapple was an excellent color carbon printer. He was using the CMYK system and I have some of his color tissue, Melinex, Pin registration equipment etc. I have been working in monochrome carbon for a few years now and will venture into color at some point. I will follow with interest.

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