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  1. #21
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by br549 View Post
    Hello Roger


    What part of East Tennessee did you come from? I grew up in The Tri-Cities area but now live in South Georgia.
    Elizabethton. Lived there until I went to UT Knoxville in 81-82, moved back and graduated from ETSU twice, came to Atlanta area the first time in 2000 but only stayed six months and moved back. Moved back to the Atlanta area in 2003 and been here ever since, now with wife, house, and darkroom all here.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Cole View Post
    Elizabethton. Lived there until I went to UT Knoxville in 81-82, moved back and graduated from ETSU twice, came to Atlanta area the first time in 2000 but only stayed six months and moved back. Moved back to the Atlanta area in 2003 and been here ever since, now with wife, house, and darkroom all here.
    What a small world it can be, I'm very familiar with Elizabethton and have good friends there. I left the area in '81 and except for a month in '85 I've lived in the South GA/Northern FL area. One day I would like to retire and move back to Upper East Tennessee (as they used to say).

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Cole View Post
    Depends on where in Georgia, and where you came from. My car insurance more than doubled when I moved from rural east TN to the Atlanta metro area. Things I buy in the store here cost the same as back in TN. Anything I hire someone to do costs more, because everyone makes a lot more here - including me, which is why I moved.
    We all know that large cities have higher taxes thus higher costs overall. Atlanta, Miami, New York, Houston, San Fran all have increased tax fee's, including on gas. The idea I was trying to relate is that in this day and age some businesses can be based in Timbuktu (so to say) and do business at a lower overall cost. Problem is, nobody wants to move away from the kids/Grand kid's and amenities/culture/entertainment/schools a larger city provides besides higher wages as in your case.

    A State without State income tax is a big incentive tho to keep a moderate price structure on services/supplies thus enabling enthusiasts to further enjoy film photography at moderate costs.
    W.A. Crider

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by krifartida View Post
    With all respect to your lament about what film photography once was, it is no more - it is time to look forward to what is around us now, what ever that may be, and as ugly or meaningless as it might seem to us.

    Nothing is better then a good, sustainable business plan, and even with that as you note the world around us is changing and some things become obsolete.
    Artists never have any money regardless of the shape of the economy, .
    Not sure how long you have been in the biz - me almost 30yrs, 1st and 1/2 that time as a shooter in NYC. Not many have the perspective I have on the industry I have here. Someone will always figure out a way to make a business work in any market. While one would think the best place for a small custom analog shop to be would be NYC, after 911 well over 3/4 of them closed. Offering digital services was no help. Its very hard to move a photo lab. The EQ can only sustain so much abuse. When we moved to Denver it was to save the business. The cost alone for rent would be 20x our current mortgage.

    Unfortunately I know all too well about 'good business plans'. We would not have survived this long without it. While there are some positive things happening, the negative far out-weigh the good in our industry. To put icing on the rotten cake is just fooling yourself. If 911 taut me anything it was never to be caught with pants down again.

    I would disagree with your synopsis of the arts however. It depends on the economy when artists have money. Our industry today is extremely volatile. When changes are made to adjust another wrench is thrown into the gear-box.

    The original point I was making is what is left in our industry needs to pool together, because we are dependent on each other. If most of the players continue to do as they are doing - standing by, watching others drown - our industry is certain to die very quickly.

  5. #25
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by br549 View Post
    What a small world it can be, I'm very familiar with Elizabethton and have good friends there. I left the area in '81 and except for a month in '85 I've lived in the South GA/Northern FL area. One day I would like to retire and move back to Upper East Tennessee (as they used to say).
    Yep. Every time we visit my wife asks, "tell me again why we don't live here?" and I say, "because there's no work for me that would pay even 1/2 what I make in Atlanta." Oh yeah, that.

    Quote Originally Posted by waynecrider View Post
    We all know that large cities have higher taxes thus higher costs overall. Atlanta, Miami, New York, Houston, San Fran all have increased tax fee's, including on gas. The idea I was trying to relate is that in this day and age some businesses can be based in Timbuktu (so to say) and do business at a lower overall cost. Problem is, nobody wants to move away from the kids/Grand kid's and amenities/culture/entertainment/schools a larger city provides besides higher wages as in your case.

    A State without State income tax is a big incentive tho to keep a moderate price structure on services/supplies thus enabling enthusiasts to further enjoy film photography at moderate costs.
    I like the amenities too, though I could probably live without those. I hear you on business costs, but Fotokemika is in Croatia already, and I doubt moving that old equipment again is practical.

    Not sure I agree about lack of income tax though. Might or might not be an incentive but having lived in both sorts of states I think an income tax is much more fair than a sales tax, which hits lower incomes disproportionately. It doesn't even lower the cost of goods or services. It might lower the price tag, but not the final cost. This is especially true where sales tax applies to services, as it does in Tennessee which lacks an income tax. I moved from there, with no income tax but sales tax exceeding 9% combined state and local that applies to pretty much everything including groceries and services, to a state with an income tax but 6% sales tax, much lower local only averaging about 2% on groceries and no sales tax on services. It doesn't make up for the difference in cost of services but I think there's a lot more going in with that than the income tax.

    I was just taking issue with the suggestion that moving to Georgia, anywhere in Georgia seemed to be implied, would radically lower car insurance. Moving from a big city to a rural area almost always will, though - on that point I agree.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by dr5chrome View Post
    The original point I was making is what is left in our industry needs to pool together, because we are dependent on each other. If most of the players continue to do as they are doing - standing by, watching others drown - our industry is certain to die very quickly.
    I would say there are pooling together, but not necessarily in a way then benefits you. The Jobo CPP-3 will need low volume chemistry available for it to be a success. Enter Champion and re-enter Tetenal. Like I said there will be those that don't fit the new ecosystem and will vanish. "Your industry" as you put it is changing beyond recognition to the point it may not be your industry any more in any recognizable form. As it evolves the dependencies change. You may not be a critical component of the new industry.

    It happened to my small comapny last year (different market). We made a mis-step, and couldn't recover in time in response to the market. Once you can't meet payroll it's all over, and it sucks. Prior success is no guarantee of future success, and it would have been close run if we hadn't tripped up. So I'm a wage slave again. It happens.

    I asked you this question before. What do you think this "pooling together" looks like. Put something down so we can see what your vision of the industry is.

  7. #27

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    After adding another +1 to lensman (took the words out of my mouth, in a much better way then i would have even been able to put down), i can add, some facts, from an inside perspective, after being to photkina, and talking to lots of folks - pretty much everyone working in the analog business is working in tandem with another company\business in some way or form, and often more then just 2 way relationships exist.

    I spoke with Keith canham the other day who said basically the same thing - we are all in it together. Film makers, chemistry makers, processor makers are all in the same team as in today's world the film USER, as DR5 puts it will get everything he wants from "amazon" like outlet. So as a matter of fact - lots of us are working together.

    DR5 - as i said before, and to second lensman, the past has no bearing on the future. Start looking forward and count your achievements in real time, not those of days gone by. in a sentimental kind of way its sad, but in reality its great! Whats better then to to know you are making a "meaningful something" or another right now?

    I just dont see the business operating today in the field of film\analog photography as "whats left" but as what is now the industrial basis of that market. If you dident like my half full cup analogy, go with a smaller cup and fill it all the way up
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  8. #28
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Even a half full cup is actually all full - air is useful too.

  9. #29
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    My point is very clear in these replies and it is this mentality that is sinking the analog/photographic ship.

    All companies can survive if they offer product that serves a need, 'when needed'. How long that will last depends. In this industry everything is inter-connected. If one thing happens, it affects everyone in one way or another. Id say 1/2 of this forum are DIYer's. The rest rely on photographic services. Even DIYer's aren't strictly DIY. Lab service and Lab closing is a wide topic here. My guess is in the distant future there wont be 'any' service, it will be to expensive for most and when the volume drops to an unsustainable level, ALL labs will close. This all because interconnected industry made the materials so costly, you could not afford the service.
    Connected to this are other costs the consumer must endure: shipping[up150% in 18mo], film cost, etc..
    When ALL labs close how many do you think will buy the stuff needed to make photography? Not enough to keep the film companies alive - they need volume. so, how many are going to learn enough chemistry - or have the time - to go buy Rons book and make their own film/plates/paper ? Not many. So you see, its all connected and today we-all do not help each other.

    It is my observation of an industry as a whole from years of watching it and being waste-deep in it for years. "you asked me before" - what.. If you see something different, then this is part of the problem. I dont think we need pages of this kind of data and debate here - this might be better suited in a round-table over coffee..





    Quote Originally Posted by lensman_nh View Post
    I would say there are pooling together, but not necessarily in a way then benefits you. The Jobo CPP-3 will need low volume chemistry available for it to be a success. Enter Champion and re-enter Tetenal. Like I said there will be those that don't fit the new ecosystem and will vanish. "Your industry" as you put it is changing beyond recognition to the point it may not be your industry any more in any recognizable form. As it evolves the dependencies change. You may not be a critical component of the new industry.

    It happened to my small comapny last year (different market). We made a mis-step, and couldn't recover in time in response to the market. Once you can't meet payroll it's all over, and it sucks. Prior success is no guarantee of future success, and it would have been close run if we hadn't tripped up. So I'm a wage slave again. It happens.

    I asked you this question before. What do you think this "pooling together" looks like. Put something down so we can see what your vision of the industry is.

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