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  1. #11
    KennyMark's Avatar
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    Hi Stone,
    Most of the responses here are spot on, however there are some issues that need qualifying.

    Since you have so many questions, I'd suggest that you begin by processing a roll of b/w in the 1500 series tank. That experience will answer many of your questions, although it will also generate more.

    The only thing I would clarify for you is that the tank needs to be in the water bath only for tempering, so for b/w, you can do it dry.

    This unit would be a nice companion to a TBE for someone with space considerations like yourself. It truly is rare (in contrast to things on eBay described as "RARE") and well suited to you.

    Let us know how your first experience is!
    If you call it a "prime lens" because it's a fixed-focal length (i.e. not a zoom lens), then as Inigo Montoya said so eloquently, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

  2. #12
    AgX
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdial View Post
    I think what you have is the first version of the CPE processor.

    Just looked at the picture again, it doesn't look like it has a heating element for the water bath? Is there a switch and thermostat for heating?
    Also, there is no provisions for the chem bottles in the water bath, so for B&W, I wouldn't worry about the water bath at all. For color, maintaining the bath might be interesting if there is no heating element.
    It has a heating and temperature control.´
    It can be set between 20°C and 44°C .

  3. #13

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    I will start by saying that all but one of your questions have been answered numerous times on APUG and LFF, specifically on threads you were personally very active on, so it might make sense to go back and go over them with specific searches for the questions on hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    So, a very talented and pretty famous photographer and author and member here on APUG generously gifted me for a VERY small price, this baby....

    Attachment 77399
    This is a CPE (not 2), a fairly older model, for which as far as i know there is no available documentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    So now what?

    So many questions...

    1. Let's start with the obvious, is there a certain water level that I'm expected to have with this thing? I don't see any markings that indicate how high it should be.
    You should read the regular CPE2 manual, as it covers most if not all if your questions. The tank needs to have good contact with the water, and level will change from the 1500 tanks (higher level due to smaller tank) and 2500 system tanks (lower level due to bigger tanks). 2-3cm of contact should be enough. This unit does not have a water level dial to set water height.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    2. The smaller tank doesn't seem to fit on the rollers that are below inside of the tank here, does this mean that it's safe to float on the water without the rollers or will that put too much strain on the motor?
    Never run a drum on a machine with out good support form rollers. In this case, you need Extension arms for the running rollers in order to support the 1500 system tank. The part number is 07067, they are readily available in stock. The tank will not float without them, and the motor is stronger then the magnets pull, it will detach it self before long.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    3. There are many size tanks and reels, and a little confused, however I do understand that this is certainly enough tank real combo to do most everything except for 4x5. Though as I understand it the larger tank can take a 4 x 5 real but I'm not sure which one/ones? Is it the 2509? And why is there an N at the end of some and not others, does they mean something?
    Its hard to tell from the single photo what you actually have as far as tanks, but from what i see you have a Multitank 5 and a unitank 1520. The multitank 5 will process all the things it says it will on its label (5X35mm 6X120 3X220 and 12X4X5), using 2502 or 2509 reels, the 1520 will do 2X35 or 2X120 or 1X220 using the 1501 reel you have.
    You will need 2509 reels to process 4X5 and 2502 reels to process roll films with the multitank (you might have some inside the tank) both are readily available in stock.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    4. There is also a 4x5 "expert" drum that everyone tells me is the one that I'm supposed to have because it's better somehow? But the prices seem really really high for that, so I'm unsure about that or if it's the right thing at all, or if the 2509 reals are sufficient, I do plan to develop some of the infrared film that tends to be very thin.
    Expert drums are great. 2509 reels which you can use with the multitank 5, are also very good, and can easily handle any type of film including the thin IR stuff.

    Expert drum also require a processor with a lift, which cannot be added to yours, and in any case, the CPE processor family is too small for Expert drums, and they can only be used with CPA or CPP processors (and of course larger ATL machines as well).


    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    5. How the heck do you load these things? The Paterson reels that I have are so simple, they aren't actually Patterson there's some other sub company called Rokunar, they have a nice tongue that comes out to help guide the film, as well as the autoloading ball bearings. The Patterson reels don't seem to even have ball bearings, and I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feed the film without touching it all the time getting fingerprints all over it. I have two tanks apparently a Unintank 1500 seriee and a multitank 2500 series.
    Depending on the reels you have (1501 or 2502), you just need to follow the same process you do as when loading your rokounar reels.
    Insert the leader on to the start groove, marked by small triangales that point inwards, same as on paterson reels. Once the lead is in, use the indented secion on either side to help the roll along. Loading 35 is easy, and due to lack of ball bearings at the entry gate, loading 120 is much easier then on paterson reels. As suggested - use a test roll to see how it goes before going into darkness.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    6. There's indicators on the outside of the tanks telling me that certain tanks take certain milliliters of developer, but sometimes there are two dev amounts listed, but it's unclear what the numbers correspond to when there are two numbers available. Like it lists when you can use one or two 120 rolls, also I read somewhere that you can use to 120 rolls in the same real, but I'm not sure if I understand how you're supposed to load them in it doesn't really make any sense.
    If you read the entire label this should be clear - each column represents the amount of film loaded in the tank, for INVERSION processing, and for ROTATION processing.
    Rotation requires much less chemistry volume then inversion. Those are minimum amounts, and when using BW your minimum should be determined by the required active material per square inch, when that amount is greater then the stated minimum, which mostly refers to color chemistry. If you use "standard" developers, such as D76 ir ID11, you can go with the stated min levels.

    True for all reels (paterson/jobo etc) Loading 2 rolls of 120 on each reel is VERY easy. Load the first one on, and make sure its loaded all the way in. Then start loading the second roll. Once the tape edge of the film is at the entry gate, stop. There is now 8-9cm space between the two rolls on the reel. If you want - Jobo reels have a special separator called the Duo Tab. Its a small red tab that is pulled out before loading the first roll, and pushed back in for the second, to prevent overlapping. Using the method above makes sure of that anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    7. There is some kind of 4x5 loading piece for the reels as well, but I'm really sure what that's about either, one did not come with the kit, what I mean is that it looks that way online but I don't know what it is exactly.
    The 2508 loader base for 2509 reels, is a nice thing to have, but the 2509 reels are very easy to load, even with out the loader. Practice makes perfect. Try once with test sheets in the light and you will see how easy it actually is. If not, get a loader, they usually sell for 80-100$ online. None in stock at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    8. There's a one button and a two button, and that's really all there are besides the temperature indicator, but I'm not really sure what the one button or the two button really does. It has a European power supply so I have to go out to RadioShack and get a transistor or whatever you call it to convert it to regular American power, so I haven't been able to actually test it out yet at all.
    one button to turn the machine and heater on, and another to run the motor, its been a while since i saw one of these so an owner of one of them might have a more exact answer on which of the buttons does what, but since there are only two options you can just try and see.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    Either way now that I actually see one in person, I understand what it really is, I was very resistant to get a processor because of the price, obviously thankfully the price for this one was not too high at all and I really got a bargain, however now that it's in my hands I completely understand the value of it, I also understand that is not as bagel nor as heavy as I would have thought.
    A Jobo processor is definitely not a bagel, what ever gave you that idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    At least I'll be able to start developing all of my color film, I have so much of it piled up.
    This CPE (Color Processor Economy) unit does not have tempering space for the chemistry bottles and was originally sold with a separate TBE (Tempering Bath Economy) unit for tempering.
    For Color processing you will either need a TBE or other tempering solution to get chems up to temp and maintain them thorughout the run, or get a different processor.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    9. What do the numbers on the multi tanks mean, I can't quite tell, they don't really explain very easily what the number system means, for example the 4 x 5 developing real is just called a 2509n I think or 2509 (non N) and is there a difference, I don't understand why it just couldn't say 4x5 reel... Unless I'm wrong which I often a.m., through my research I've only found this one real, it's not like you would get confused if they just called it the JOBO 45 reel. So am I looking at the right one?
    tank ending with 1 have an inversion lid. tanks ending with 3 have a cog lid. Tanks starting with 15 are unitank 1500 system tank, tanks starting with 25 are multitank 2500 system tanks.
    The third digit tells you how many rolls of 35mm the tank will hold.

    The 2509 and 2509n are the same reel, N marking NEW model, which came with special retaining panels. The 2509 is called a planfilm reel, or in english a sheet film reel. It is not called a 4X5 reel because it will process 4X5, 9x12 and cut sheets of 6X9.
    As this reel starts with a 25 it is part of the 2500 system, and will only work with 2500 system tanks. You can load up to 2X 2509 reels in your multitank 5 (2551) and with 6 sheets on each reel you can have up to 12 sheets on the tank in one run.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    10. Where's a good place to get this stuff used, if I buy a real it will actually almost cost me as much as the darn processor. If I end up getting the supersystem version, that everybody says is the only way to go, then it's like $500 which seems a little crazy, is there a place to get them cheap?
    What is a supersystem?

    The fact you got this nice system for little or no money does not affect the actual value or cost of things. If you were to get a free car, you would be asking for cheap tires just because they would cost more then the car...

    While some things seem crazy expensive, Expert drums were never cheap, and since you will need to use it manually with no processor (as it will not work with the one you have right now), you will be getting a whole new processor for that, so the expense for perfection, might not seem so excessive after all.
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  4. #14
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone there's so many answers here I can't directly address everyone.

    But I wanted to say thanks for all of the answers, it is indeed the CPE processor.

    It's a shame that I will have to buy or look for a separate waterbath tempering thing, that's one of the reasons that I haven't developed as much of my color film, the water bath having to be so consistent is a pain in the butt.

    I'm very very grateful for this processor, it's a great step towards being a better photographer, and I mean that in that I've held back on a lot of color imagery because of how much backlog I have already, so I think that this will help motivate me to do more color and also because it's an intro to using the processor I will now have experience using a processor and I'm sure at some point be "leveling up". I'm fairly sure that my benefactor understood that, and his plan to get me shooting even more film is working. Hah!

    I feel like Pip!

    I'm getting next info about the 1500 tank, some people say I can just get the water level up to it and others are saying that I can't use it with this processor because I don't have special rollers, so which is it?

    I should've shown you guys the reels, I have a full set of reals for the 2500 series multi tank and also a full set of reals for the 1500 series tank.

    I don't have much complaining to do, the tanks were a bonus gift, so going out and buying a new 2509n reel (or two) isn't so bad I suppose, I just figured it would be beneficial if I could get them at lesser the new prices.

    As far as the loading of the reels goes, I'm still unclear about something, I don't see any indentation except for that the first area of where the real spirals are, one of the plastic pieces sort of indents a little bit when you press on it, is that supposed to be there so that you press down on it on one side as you're spending it so that it pushes the film forward? Acting like a grip on the film? I can't tell if that's intentional or just send plastic, and if it's not intentional I don't want to break the real by bending it too many times.

    For what it's worth, I have never had any static problems with the tongue reels, I really love them they're fantastic, I can load up real in under a minute with no issues no scratching and no frustration or struggle unlike the Patterson reels or the Jobo reels which are a little more finicky to load, but I guess I'll just have to get used to this. I'm fairly certain that for now I'm going to stick to my normal processing for black-and-white because I am very specific about how I develop and technique, since I use Rodinal for most things.

    Okay, now I understand what you're talking about with that little red tab and the 120 reals that can be loaded twice, it just seems a little weird because I never touch the film once I start loading with those other reels that I have, and so the idea of having to push the film around and around to get it deep into the real seems a little out of my normal realm, obviously it's fine, it just seems like it could cause problems for me especially with film that is curly, and not wanting to get finger oil on to the backside of the film farther in then just at the end part.

    Anyway I have some experimenting to do, unfortunately I really won't have time this weekend to do anything with this and it will all have to wait until Thanksgiving weekend. I'm sure I'll have many more questions then.

    Oh also someone mentioned something about the magnet and the motor being stronger than the magnet, the magnet has certainly already fallen out and I'm wondering what kind of glue I should use to get it to stay in there and not fall out with the heat of the water and the moisture? I'm sure there are only certain glues that are ideal?

    Thanks guys!

    Oh and to the first poster who mentioned about having no excuse for paper, I never had an excuse for not developing paper, I had an excuse for not printing the paper, because I don't have a space to be able to set up the enlarger etc. I forget the designation, but it's certainly a very large angled enlarger, which needs a plank of some kind to be bolted down, it's a 4x5 enlarger and then there's the question of having access to water and being able to close off an area that is completely light tight, all of which I have absolutely no room for or that I'm allowed to use in the house and occupying right now. So no printing for me just yet. If I did, I would already be printing and developing my paper in some old Cibichrome tubes that I have from a while back, as well as a uniroller... I just didn't have anything to temper the water bath but now I do obviously.

    While I'm thinking about it, the 2500 tank I have, also does paper? How do I load the paper? Do I need special paper reels for that?

    You guys are awesome!
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  5. #15
    Chris Lange's Avatar
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    Paper just goes in the drum, emulsion side facing inward. Easy as pie.

    edit: as to the static issue, it is especially dangerous in dry environments, especially during the winter especially when there is even less moisture in the air. The marks left by tongue reels look like little fish-hooks up the center of a medium format frame. Drove me crazy, thought I had a strange lightleak in my Hasselblad film backs, until I started getting the same marks on 35mm film with only one common factor, the reels. It happens when loading quickly, most often, but I have had it happen even when I intentionally go slow and methodically. My brown and black stained Paterson reels are much better for me. If you haven't had the problem, you're lucky...but if you notice that you have strange marks on your film, sometimes multiple occurrences of the identical mark, on one of the side thirds of a 120 frame, you'll know it isn't necessarily your camera/darkroom, but the reels.
    Last edited by Chris Lange; 11-24-2013 at 12:22 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    See my work at my website CHRISTOPHER LANGE PHOTOGRAPHY

    or my snaps at my blog MINIMUM DENSITY
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  6. #16
    AgX
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    It's a shame that I will have to buy or look for a separate waterbath tempering thing, that's one of the reasons that I haven't developed as much of my color film, the water bath having to be so consistent is a pain in the butt.
    You mean for the processing baths?

    Why not put them into the processor before inserting the tank?

  7. #17
    Chris Lange's Avatar
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    I don't think there is room on a CPE for the bottles, unlike the slots on a CPA or CPP...
    See my work at my website CHRISTOPHER LANGE PHOTOGRAPHY

    or my snaps at my blog MINIMUM DENSITY
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  8. #18
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Lange View Post
    I don't think there is room on a CPE for the bottles, unlike the slots on a CPA or CPP...
    Yeah he's correct, there's no room for them in the actual processor itself, it's not long enough to even fit them at the end, although if I remember correctly, after the initial developer, the other developers are sort of not as important as far as temperature is concerned?
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  9. #19
    AgX
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    I thought of improvising. And baths not completely submerged.
    I mean, it is a gifted horse...


    Why not put them into the processor before inserting the tank?
    In the meaning of "instead of the tank".

  10. #20
    Chris Lange's Avatar
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    Kodak's specifications for C-41 were 37.8 degrees celsius for dev, and then anywhere between 25 and 38 degrees celsius for rinse/bleach/fix/whatever. I still use this framework when I dev c-41 and get great negs, no reticulation or any nonsense like that.
    See my work at my website CHRISTOPHER LANGE PHOTOGRAPHY

    or my snaps at my blog MINIMUM DENSITY
    --
    If you don't have it, then you don't have it.

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