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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oren Grad View Post
    ...Is this CPP-2 only? I can fill my CPA-2 as far as I want.
    Yes, CPP-2 only.

    I have a CPA-2 and, when it started to look like Jobo availability would be endangered by the digital revolution (but before their prices doubled), ordered a second one as a spare. Badger called a week later to inform me that the CPA-2 had been discontinued and asked whether I'd like to cancel the order or get a CPP-2. Even though it was somewhat more expensive, I went with the CPP-2.

    Fast forward to first use of the CPP-2. My "darkroom" is a temporarily converted bathroom, with the processor out-of-sink. As I filled the water bath to its usual level -- for my CPA-2 -- the overflow output made a real mess! It always pays to read the instructions first.

    Purpose of the water bath overflow is to accommodate ambient temperatures higher than process temperature. A cold water line is connected to a solenoid-controlled input valve. When the controller determines water bath temperature has gone above the set point, it opens that valve to let in colder water; excess bath water then goes out the overflow. Of course, when it's hot weather here, our "cold" tap spews out 80+ degree F water, so the entire scheme is worthless without a chiller.

  2. #12

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    Thank you all so much for the information! There is far more experience here than I could have hoped. I think it might have just been a timing issue. I had mixed the chemicals at 40C shortly before processing, so I figured they would be at temperature quickly when I put them in the bath. I guess not. But today I left the Jobo running much of the day, and when I went to check the first developer temp, it was exactly 38C, despite the water being 2/3rds of the way up the bottles.

    It may also have been the cooler than normal room temp -- it is Iceland in the winter after all, and room temperature was probably about 17C. I have the other half of the test roll to process tonight, so we'll see how it goes.
    For the other questions: I did not use a pre-wet, but I used a 5+ minute prewarm, which is what is listed in the instructions. I processed for 6:30 seconds, using Fuji chemicals. The roll was Kodak E100G (though a few years expired...). I will make certain the temperature is perfect this time, and if it is still dark, I suspect it is the chemicals. I mixed fresh from concentrate, but the concentrate has been hanging around a couple of months...


    Sal -- you need the geothermal water we have here. The cold water comes out at 6C (42F) and the hot comes out at 90C (194F) -- glaciers do the cooling and volcanoes the heating...
    Actually, it can be a pain. I had to install a special thermostatic mixing valve just to keep the hot water from melting my water filters...

    P.S. Ed -- the bath where the drum sits is capable of covering the drum sufficiently -- jobo says 1/8th of an inch is all the water that should cover it, otherwise it will start floating and development can be uneven. In any case, it seems like the bath is bringing the chemicals to temperature as long as I give them enough warmup time...

  3. #13

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    I operate my CPP-2 a little differently then others have posted. I fill the lower trough with enough water to cover the heating element and pump with plenty of water then switch the unit on with the pump turned on so that the upper trough fills with water. I then add water in the lower trough until it begins to run out the overflow. This allows for the upper trough to be full and the lower trough to be full so that tempering water covers the solution bottles almost to the top.

    ** You must have something to catch the full contents of the upper trough in place when you turn off the pump/unit! The upper trough drains into the already full lower trough and then runs out the overflow. **

    If I remember correctly the top trough can hold 2-3 gallons.
    Darkroom Equipment : 2X Beseler 23C Color Enlargers, Jobo ATL-1, Jobo CPE-2 Plus and Kreonite ProMate 16" Roller Transport Processor

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Davis View Post
    I could shoot digital and email the image to a lab and get a digital C-print. But I want to shoot and print in my darkroom. I was born in the wrong century.

  4. #14

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    Thanks Rellik, that is an interesting way to do it.
    I wanted to see if anyone had any more advice -- I ran the process again, measuring every step very carefully. The process was at exactly 38, but the slides still came out very dark. Basically the exact same as last time. Colors seem good, they are just underexposed. Does this sound like dead or underpowered developer? As I said, these chemicals were kind of old (the concentrates...the mix was brand new). The process time was 6:30, which seems right where it should be. I followed all other instructions to the letter (the Fuji Hunt instructions for rotary tube processors). The only area where I compromised was that they call for a 10L/minute rinse between the first developer and the reversal, but instead of this I just washed with multiple changes of water while it was still in the jobo.

  5. #15
    wildbill's Avatar
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    [QUOTE= As I said, these chemicals were kind of old (the concentrates...the mix was brand new).[/QUOTE]

    That sounds like the 2nd compromise. Also, as I said before, the chemicals may be 38 when you measure them but they won't be inside the drum.
    www.vinnywalsh.com

    I know what I want but I just don't know how to go about gettin' it.-Hendrix

  6. #16

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    The density of the E6 process is adjusted by the time in the first developer. Fujichrome takes a bit longer than the recommended Kodak E6 times. 6m 45s is what I use for Velvia and Provia, 6m 30s for Astia 100 (including fill and drain times) on my CPP2.

  7. #17

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    As stated, allow for some temp drift down as water goes thru the lift.

    Not all that familiar with the different models, but you raise the water in the upper bath by rotating the black valve, top right.

    Pour temperded water thru the lift to warm it just before introducing developer. Temporarily take the tank off.

    run the tank empty except for film for 5 minuted to bring the tank and film up to temp or the process will be cold. This is standard for me even with B&W hand inversion tanks.

  8. #18

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    Thanks Ronald. It turns out that it was dead chemicals. I did manage to get a decent density when I extended the first developer time to 8 minutes, but the colors were very poor. I bought some fresh chemistry, remixed and the next run at the standard 6 minutes came out correctly. I also managed to find some Tetenal Protectan, so hopefully that will be able to extend the life of the concentrates a bit longer for me. That said, now that I am set up to do E-6 and running it ok, I should be able to use the chemicals in a timely manner. Temperature really is important to keep an eye on though, even after a very long warm-up period, the first developer can be at 37 or 37.5C, but sometimes it is exactly at 38...unfortunately I don't seem to be able to just set the machine to a temperature where it will be 100% stable. The bath seems to stay constant between 37.9 and 38.1 when I set it to 38, but the chemicals themselves are slightly more suspect. What I am doing now is just keeping a large pitcher of very hot water next to the processor, and as I get ready to run the first developer, reversal and color developer, I take them out of the jars and pour them into a graduated beaker. Then I check the temperature. If it is under, I put the beaker in the larger pitcher of very hot water, let that bring the temperature up to exactly 38, and then I run the process. That seems to work...It is a bit annoying though, as I had thought the point of the CPP-2 was to keep the chemicals at exactly the right temperature. It doesn't seem to be able to do that too reliably. At least not enough for someone as fussy as me.

  9. #19
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    ... Temperature really is important to keep an eye on though, even after a very long warm-up period, the first developer can be at 37 or 37.5C, but sometimes it is exactly at 38...unfortunately I don't seem to be able to just set the machine to a temperature where it will be 100% stable. ...
    ... as I had thought the point of the CPP-2 was to keep the chemicals at exactly the right temperature. It doesn't seem to be able to do that too reliably. At least not enough for someone as fussy as me.
    JOBO states that the temperature will be held to +/- 0.1 degree Celsius. I have found that to be more than sufficiently accurate and stable for all color work.

    I have always been suspicious about Kodak's rock solid requirement for +/- 0.25 degrees F. I am positive that it is *very* difficult to hold any industrial process within those limits. I know from experience that I have processed at varing temperatures (through "dumb-as-a-brick error") as much as five (5) degrees Celsius away from "ideal" and the results were no more variable than they are - usually - as a result of the sundry other variables inherent in the E-6 and C-41 processes.

    I may ("may" - more like "probably") get a reaction from PE, but I base that on sheer experience ... recognizing the fact that I may be "lucking out" - compensating for error by sheer chance.

    I would suggest that you consider the one concept that allows the operation of any, and ALL Metrology Labs (n.b. "Metrology" - really, really precise measurements, not "meteorology"):

    Absolute Accuracy (read "perfection") is an interesting concept - but not obtainable. All we can hope to do is efficiently manage error.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  10. #20
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    For a Jobo CPA/CPP you have to set the temperature +0,5C above the regular temperature of E6/C41 processing (37,8 degrees C) Measure this temperature near the recirculation exit.
    The water temperature drops for the first bottle 0,5-0,6 degrees C. Stabilisation time about 1,5 hour of the system.

    That's the answer of Jobo's most experienced processor engineer. Just did a workshop for E6 in 4x5"/ 5x7" / and 8x10".

    Best regards,

    Robert

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