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  1. #11
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco B View Post
    ... and I think most people will make any exposure adjustments in a more relaxed and unconscious way by thinking:

    "Oooh, I changed the grade from 2.5 to 3 and now it looks to dark! Got to take off a few seconds! "

    instead of consulting "tables" each time they do an adjustment. ...
    Marco

    Isn't it better to look at the table first before wasting a sheet of paper? I prefer to get no surprises when fine-tuning the contrast. Actually, I bet most people hesitate to fine-tune the contrast because they are afraid of these surprises. This can be avoided, and the reward is more flexibility, and in the end, better prints. Isn't that what it is all about?

    Anyway, it's important to understand why the head cannot do what the customer expected. As you said, it is calibrated for one, very outdated, paper.
    Last edited by RalphLambrecht; 10-11-2010 at 07:37 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  2. #12

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    Many tanks...but...what i have to conclude, that the head should only fine work at WL? So that it was useless? There is a way to use it??

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciccioder View Post
    Many tanks...but...what i have to conclude, that the head should only fine work at WL? So that it was useless? There is a way to use it??
    Of course you can use it. It will do fine work too, but you must correct the exposure trial-and-error, as Marco suggested, or go through the effort and make an exposure compensation table, as I suggested. This is nothing special. Every darkroom worker has to make that choice with MC papers, no matter what equipment they use. It's a common characteristic of multi-contrast paper. Once the material is learned and understood, it becomes a very powerful tool. There is no magic, just a lot of hard but rewarding work.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  4. #14

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    Many thanks, really!!!

    Concluding, seems understand that the head is calibrated for the old Ilford RC paper II (or in general for old type of multigrade paper) that needs more light in any grade of contrast!!!! For this reason i have to make an exposure compensation table.....but i have to do that for any type of paper that i use (Multigrade RC - FB and so on)??????

    So the functioning of the head is ok, i hope....it's normal that if i choose an exposure time for a grade of contrast and after i change it with another (usually higher than before) the print is too darker (because the internal diaphram - when in use - let pass more light, according to the old settings for the old ilford's VC paper which is calibrated for).

    So, the question is: could i use the VLS 501 HEAD in position AUTOMATIC (with the internal diaphram inserted) or i have to switch off?
    Sorry....i'm hard understanding for my poor practice....but when i saw the laorator 1200 i could not resist.....and i buyed it!!!
    Regards
    Last edited by ciccioder; 10-12-2010 at 02:57 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  5. #15
    Marco B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciccioder View Post
    Many thanks, really!!!

    Concluding, seems understand that the head is calibrated for the old Ilford RC paper II (or in general for old type of multigrade paper) that needs more light in any grade of contrast!!!! For this reason i have to make an exposure compensation table.....but i have to do that for any type of paper that i use (Multigrade RC - FB and so on)??????
    A few extra and correcting remarks based on yours that hopefully clarify things up:

    - First, you are going in the right direction with your conclusions, so that is good!
    - The outdated old Ilford Multigrade II paper I mentioned is, is specific for the Ilford 500H Multigrade exposure head that I use with my L1200. It was the paper my head was designed for. It may be the same paper your Durst VLS 501 head is calibrated to, but it might also well be another paper...
    - Yes, as Ralph suggests, if you want to work very precise and concise, you have to make an exposure compensation table for every paper type you use.

    However, as I suggested, there is also the possibility to "go-with-the-flow" and use the results your exposure head gives as a guide and go from there with a bit of trial and error and using test strips.

    Please note Ralph Lambrecht is one of the most experienced and advanced darkroom workers on the globe... He sometimes forgets that while explaining things ... His working methods may be a bit "over your head", which is nothing to be ashamed of, as I learn something new too each time he posts these kind of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by ciccioder View Post
    So the functioning of the head is ok, i hope....it's normal that if i choose an exposure time for a grade of contrast and after i change it with another (usually higher than before) the print is too darker
    Most likely: Yes!

    But please mind the remarks paul_c5x4 made about your Durst VLS 501 head and about not using the WL light setting for determining base exposure, but using a contrast setting instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by ciccioder View Post
    So, the question is: could i use the VLS 501 HEAD in position AUTOMATIC (with the internal diaphram inserted) or i have to switch off?
    As I said, I personally have the Ilford 500H Multigrade exposure head with my Durst L1200 enlarger, not your Durst VLS 501 exposure head...

    So I can't comment on the AUTOMATIC setting. Most likely Paul_c5x4 can answer your question, as he seems to own one.

    Quote Originally Posted by ciccioder View Post
    Sorry....i'm hard understanding for my poor practice....but when i saw the laorator 1200 i could not resist.....and i buyed it!!!
    Regards
    Don't worry, the Durst Laborator 1200 series enlargers are some of the best enlargers ever made, so you got an excellent buy.
    My website

    "The nineteenth century began by believing that what was reasonable was true, and it wound up by believing that what it saw a photograph of, was true." - William M. Ivins Jr.

    "I don't know, maybe we should disinvent color, and we could just shoot Black & White." - David Burnett in 1978

    "Analog is chemistry + physics, digital is physics + math, which ones did you like most?"

  6. #16
    Marco B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    Isn't it better to look at the table first before wasting a sheet of paper? I prefer to get no surprises when fine-tuning the contrast. Actually, I bet most people hesitate to fine-tune the contrast because they are afraid of these surprises. This can be avoided, and the reward is more flexibility, and in the end, better prints. Isn't that what it is all about?

    Anyway, it's important to understand why the head cannot do what the customer expected. As you said, it is calibrated for one, very outdated, paper.
    Ralph, I basically theoretically agree with all you said . I think the two valuable lessons you taught us here in this thread is 1) Needed exposure changes with changing contrast filtration, 2) There are marked and important differences between different VC papers and brands of paper.

    I am just afraid the advanced calibration you suggest, may be a bit to complicated for the average novice darkroom worker, and might scare them even of, so that is why I suggested the "trial-and-error" route as at least an alternative to "going-all-the-way" and fine-tuning and calibrating your entire work-flow up to a level you are used too.

    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    Actually, I bet most people hesitate to fine-tune the contrast because they are afraid of these surprises. This can be avoided, and the reward is more flexibility, and in the end, better prints. Isn't that what it is all about?
    Personally, I have never hesitated adjusting exposure times or contrast whenever results were unsatisfactory. It has learned me a lot doing so, and I encourage everyone else to do so too.
    Last edited by Marco B; 10-12-2010 at 05:05 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    My website

    "The nineteenth century began by believing that what was reasonable was true, and it wound up by believing that what it saw a photograph of, was true." - William M. Ivins Jr.

    "I don't know, maybe we should disinvent color, and we could just shoot Black & White." - David Burnett in 1978

    "Analog is chemistry + physics, digital is physics + math, which ones did you like most?"

  7. #17

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    Hello,
    May I give you a work flow ?
    Choose one of your favorite negatives not too hard to print (one which can print strait is ideal)
    Dial a grade #2 on the head, put a paper on the easel; and using the filters ON make a test strip to find a correct time for the delicate highlight which is important on your image.
    Once found, make a full print at that time and contrast and check the shadows. Too light and you need to increase the grade setting, too dark and you need to decrease the grade setting.
    Make one full print at the same time setting you found previously and new grade. If the highlight is still good, your head is doing a very fine work. If not you have to compensate with exposure to get this tone right.
    If the second is true, then you'll have to re calibrate the head (by making a chart as Ralph explained).
    I bet you will be quite good without calibration "for government work" ;-)
    Another option is to buy an RH designs Analyser Pro, with a set of under the lens filters from Ilford and use your head in white light position. You won't regret your buy !
    Hope this help.
    P.S : If the first print is good in highlight and shadow at grade #2, select a lore difficult neg ;-)
    Do not forget to dry all papers before making comparisons in order to account for paper dry down.
    Last edited by GeorgesGiralt; 10-12-2010 at 05:54 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: was not clear enough, should proof read before posting

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul_c5x4 View Post
    You need to make a test strip with the filters in place, not under white light (WL). With the filters in place, changing the grade should not affect the required exposure unless you want grade 0 or grade 5. The data sheets that came with the paper should tell you if the exposure needs changing at higher grades (or lower).
    paul, from your words, i understand that the head must work alone (if diaphram was inserted - Automatic position) once you choose your correct exposure time.....meanwhile, all others say me that i have to create my exposure compensation table.....to determine my correct workflow with any filter, for a determinate paper.
    thanks

  9. #19
    Marco B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciccioder View Post
    paul, from your words, i understand that the head must work alone (if diaphram was inserted - Automatic position) once you choose your correct exposure time.....meanwhile, all others say me that i have to create my exposure compensation table.....to determine my correct workflow with any filter, for a determinate paper.
    thanks
    Cicicioder, whether or not to use an exposure compensation table, is entirely up to you. See what works for you.

    As said, I don't use exposure compensation tables, but solve it in a more "intuitive" manner requiring more test strips. Ralph does use such tables, and his entire workflow is calibrated to perfection allowing him to effectively and efficiently "dial-in" his chosen contrast and exposures without giving a second thought to the need for exposing and processing test strips of photo paper for each new negative he prints...

    No one can tell you what you need to do, just do what feels right for you.
    My website

    "The nineteenth century began by believing that what was reasonable was true, and it wound up by believing that what it saw a photograph of, was true." - William M. Ivins Jr.

    "I don't know, maybe we should disinvent color, and we could just shoot Black & White." - David Burnett in 1978

    "Analog is chemistry + physics, digital is physics + math, which ones did you like most?"

  10. #20

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    The Durst Multigraph will change the exposure automatically as changes in contrast are made; I was unaware that the 501 was capable of any automation whatsoever. I use the 501 for color work only and the Multigraph for B&W only so it it never occurred to me to check it.

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