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  1. #21
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Greg

    This standard is a bit old and was replaced by ISO 3664:2009. The new illumination values are 500 lux for practical appraisal and 2,000 lux for critical appraisal. That's not a big difference, but I need to stress that this standard is for people who evaluate other peoples images not their own printing progress. The difference is that a print will look better in bright light. Print and evaluate in dim conditions, and you will be on the safe side. Do it the other way around, and you will be disappointed.

    The range of color temperature is fairly wide (4-6k K). Also, they seem to allow for incandescent and fluorescent lighting, including tungsten, which I think is realistic and typical for gallery lighting. Unfortunately, I know little about color printing, so, take my statements as relating to B&W images only.

    Nevertheless, I see no evidence to suggest daylight bulbs as a standard unless there is a personal preference for some reason, which, of course, everyone is entitled to.
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    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  2. #22
    Greg Davis's Avatar
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    Ralph, the suggestion given by Kodak is for judging color balance for mostly commercial labs that must work from client's negatives. It doesn't work well at all for B&W. I can only give my own experience in saying that their recommendation works very well for printing color as opposed to the standard B&W viewing light or even fluorescent bulbs of a warmer temperature. So if someone were to print both in their home darkroom, I cannot recommend using the same evaluation light for both processes. They have different requirements.

    Also, in my experience, galleries do not turn off the house lights and turn on track lighting when showing work. Instead they have both turned on, therefore the level of illumination is higher than it used to be. So the inclusion of tungsten bulbs with the fluorescent imitates what I see in galleries, especially here in Miami. Unfortunately, there isn't any international regulations as to gallery lighting, so every place is going to do it differently.
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  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    My windows don't do that. My windows filter all UV and a lot of the near-UV radiation out before it gets into the room. And it gets worse from there. Whatever gets through the glass is bounced off non-white walls, carpet, furniture all changing the color temperature. Using a colormeter, I just did a test, and measured around 5000K right at the window but only 4000K a few feet into the room.

    So, why use a daylight bulb that never represents what's actually happening?
    I can see you don't have much experience with color. If you take that color meter reading throughout the day over may days you will see that value change greatly. I don't see your point about UV as relevant as it is outside human visual response, any paper brightener becomes a wild card as that is just as variable as natural light, most photograph are not hung outdoors, frame glass can block UV, and that radiation is not part of daylight standards.

    When working in a color darkroom, consistency is very important and so you need a standard illuminant to get consistent results. I think you can agree with that. Since you are making something for the human visual system, you need a illuminant that will reflect that. Daylight (and there are different daylight standards) is the most practical as it will look good under a wide variety of lighting--pick up any photo/picture book, you will see images optimized for daylight.

    Manufacturers know this and they optimize their material for daylight. (With your reasoning, slide film should have been tungsten balanced because slide projector bulbs are not daylight.) Printing under different lighting can be done (but not always well), but the result will only be good for that--it will look really bad under everything else. That is not the case for printing for daylight.

    And if you are serious about color management on a computer, you will calibrate your monitor to a daylight standard, commonly D65 (6,500K). Even when you are running printers.

    While there is a subjective reasoning behind color (and everything in photography is ultimately subjective), there is a century of experience and research into these practices and standards that is hard to brush off as merely "opinion."

    BTW, daylight bulbs are not need for B&W and have never been a requirement. The only requirement is intensity.

  4. #24
    ic-racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renato Tonelli View Post
    What type of light source do you use for viewing prints in the darkroom - both B&W and Color? Tungsten, Daylight?
    I actually use gallery-style tungsten/halogen track lighting in my darkroom. Walls are gray.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikari View Post
    (With your reasoning, slide film should have been tungsten balanced because slide projector bulbs are not daylight.) .
    So, by your reasoning, slide film should be evaluated with a tungsten halogen view box and color prints evaluated with a 'daylight' source? Is that what you are implying?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ic-racer View Post
    So, by your reasoning, slide film should be evaluated with a tungsten halogen view box and color prints evaluated with a 'daylight' source? Is that what you are implying?
    You will need to go back and read my post. All color material should be evaluated under a standard daylight illuminant.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikari View Post
    I can see you don't have much experience with color. ...
    My apologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hikari View Post
    ... And if you are serious about color management on a computer, you will calibrate your monitor to a daylight standard, commonly D65 (6,500K). ...
    D65 is not a daylight standard. It's a TV standard. Morning and evening daylight is around D50. Average daylight is around D55 and noon daylight peaks at D65. That's neither average nor standard.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  8. #28
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ic-racer View Post
    I actually use gallery-style tungsten/halogen track lighting in my darkroom. Walls are gray.
    Perfect! I don't see how you could do better.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    D65 is not a daylight standard. It's a TV standard. Morning and evening daylight is around D50. Average daylight is around D55 and noon daylight peaks at D65. That's neither average nor standard.
    What I mean by a "standard" is a defined light output. And D65 is more than a TV standard. Needles to say, in color work, you need to work to some daylight standard. Your choice is dependent on many factors. A good book on color management will cover much of this. And there are many texts that cover viewing conditions with color material.

  10. #30
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikari View Post
    What I mean by a "standard" is a defined light output. And D65 is more than a TV standard. Needles to say, in color work, you need to work to some daylight standard. Your choice is dependent on many factors. A good book on color management will cover much of this. And there are many texts that cover viewing conditions with color material.
    Can you make a book recommendation?
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

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