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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    But is it art or just photographic technical perfection?
    hey clive

    i think that can be asked of any photograph not just a print from a bigger than 8x10 negative.
    ... can't it ?
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  2. #62
    papagene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    i use large format because it is a requirement for some of the work that i do.
    it is primarily because of perspective control and because the negative is large enough
    to view a contact print as a proof.
    but that is what i tell people, the real reason i do it is because it is fun.
    I agree whole heartily with John on this... because it is fun!! I really enjoy working with a large format camera. But then again I also like using my two Fuji MF rangefinders... my Rolleicord...
    gene LaFord


    Long live Ed "Big Daddy" Roth!!
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  3. #63
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    I forgot to tell the story why I use 4x5...

    When I was a young man, out of my second job after school, I stopped in a camera store and saw an Omega DII and Kodak easel. I traded in a Minolta X-370 (that I'd only bought to help out an acquaintance who was short on cash), put some money down and put the rest on layaway. Went back and got it and that enlarger and easel are still working for me today.

    Classic example of cart in front of horse, now I had the means to make enlargements from 4x5. My first foray into LF did not hook me in immediately. So I went back to 35mm for the next maybe ten years. I could do a lot with Panatomic-X, Kodachrome and later Velvia. But mostly I loved the black and white.

    Somewhere along the way the world changed around me and now I was in high-res online image viewing technology. I spent my working days helping people look at 300MB graphic arts plate files over the Internet. I wanted to make some demo files. Sure it was fun looking at my 16MB scanned 35mm slides with the technology, but I wasn't really impressed with 35mm anymore.

    The same time, in our hallway, I had a couple prints up. One from 35mm of the Brooks Range in Alaska, another from 4x5 of Dinkey Creek. Seeing those prints side-by-side every day, cemented my desire to shoot 4x5.

    So for my 50th birthday, my wife told me I could buy any camera I wanted in the world. I researched here and there, narrowed down my choices and decided on the 4x5 that was to be the last camera I ever bought... (It wasn't but it was supposed to be).

  4. #64
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    But is it art or just photographic technical perfection?
    Is the pursuit of photographic technical perfection mutually exclusive with the creation of art?

    Ken
    "Hate is an adolescent term used to stop discussion with people you disagree with. You can do better than that."
    —'blanksy', December 13, 2013

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Is the pursuit of photographic technical perfection mutually exclusive with the creation of art?

    Ken


    YES ! in some case ... they really have nothing to do with eachother.
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  6. #66
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    I contact print using alt processes. The bigger the neg, the bigger the print.

    And it is a lot of fun...
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

  7. #67
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    YES ! in some case ... they really have nothing to do with eachother.
    Are you sure, John?

    Because the logical extension of your answer would be to take the position that any artist who feels the need for greater levels of technical perfection in the use of his chosen medium (in order to more clearly express his vision in whatever medium that might be) cannot, by definition, create a work of art.

    Ken
    "Hate is an adolescent term used to stop discussion with people you disagree with. You can do better than that."
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  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Are you sure, John?

    Because the logical extension of your answer would be to take the position that any artist who feels the need for greater levels of technical perfection in the use of his chosen medium (in order to more clearly express his vision in whatever medium that might be) cannot, by definition, create a work of art.

    Ken
    hi ken

    i can only speak from personal experience, and seeing works of art made by elementary school children.
    often times it is not having any clue about what is right and wrong, what is good technique and bad which leads to great art.

    i think it was picasso who said that his main gist was to create art like a child.

    for me at least ... the only thing gotten from a technically perfect photograph, is a technically perfect photograph, and i find that to be a bore ... just a "document"
    "art" happens when there is human touch, mistakes and imperfection ( like wabi sabi ) otherwise a robot can make art, and elephants couldn't ...

    i could be wrong ...

    john

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    Polyglot, I personally think that the cost/benefit comparison to roll film is a false economy for at least some of us.

    One of the biggest problems I have is not finishing a roll when I shoot.

    I'm to a point where when I see a shot that I want, 2-4 frames are normally more than plenty for a given subject. I roll 20-shot rolls for 35mm to minimize this, but I am finding that getting even 10 shots in a row, with the old RB, is becoming a real streatch most of the time.
    If that's how you work, I can't sit here and tell you you're wrong. However, my approach is that I have four backs for my RZ and keep each loaded with a different type of film. And if I don't finish a roll, it can sit there happily until I need that film type in another week or four, at which point it'll be finished off and I don't waste any. I can put up with waiting to get my images, in fact I often have a little backlog of 5 to 15 rolls before I fire up the Jobo.

    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny
    I'm not sure if it makes sense to talk about "stop[s] of detail", because the way we view images is so nonlinear. As far as information in the frame goes, the difference isn't enormous---a factor of 3 between 6x7 and 4x5, given equal film resolution---but clearly a lot of people find the visual impact of that modest difference to be disproportionate, perhaps because it crosses some critical perceptual threshold for them.

    In any case, I think "detail per frame" is more important than "detail per unit area" in practice (I think that's what you're comparing above; Acros apparently costs twice as much per unit area in 4x5 as in MF, right?). One of the points of shooting large format is precisely to enlarge less, i.e., to put more film area in the image; of course that costs more per frame, and of course it doesn't make the underlying resolution of the film any higher, but it does deliver more film resolution to the viewer.

    In short: It's not that you double your cost (per unit area) to keep the same resolution, it's that you sextuple your cost to triple your resolution. Diminishing returns to be sure, but somewhat offset if, like many of us, you get a higher fraction of keepers in LF.
    I was referring to detail and cost per frame (35-50c vs $1.80, for first-rate films), not per area so I think we mostly agree here. I have a pair of 16x20" prints on my cubicle wall: one from 6x7 TMY2 and one from 4x5 Fomapan (Arista) 100... they have the same level of perceptible detail and the better film in smaller format gives about 4 stops of speed advantage. So even though a large negative is nice, my subjective experience is that it makes no (when using cheaper films) to visible-but-not-earthshattering (using identical films at 5x $/frame) difference in final appearance. I'd much prefer to shoot 5x7 but I can't really get the films I want in that size and my enlarger is only 4x5. The extra area would probably make more difference if I could print at 32" or 40" but I can't as yet.

    Maybe I'm an incompetent, but my keeper ratio for LF and MF is about the same unless I'm doing higher-risk (uncontrolled subject) shots like candid portraits that have an inherently lower keeper rate due to fleeting expressions, etc.

  10. #70
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polyglot View Post
    If that's how you work, I can't sit here and tell you you're wrong. However, my approach is that I have four backs for my RZ and keep each loaded with a different type of film. And if I don't finish a roll, it can sit there happily until I need that film type in another week or four, at which point it'll be finished off and I don't waste any. I can put up with waiting to get my images, in fact I often have a little backlog of 5 to 15 rolls before I fire up the Jobo.
    I've got 3 backs for my RB, essentially bought for the same reason as you state and to avoid having to reload at inopportune times. 4 Nikon bodies allow the same in 35mm.

    Kept coming to the weekend though, wanting to print from the 2 or 5 or whatever number of shots I grabbed as I went through the work week.

    The problem compounds itself when I shoot those "5" shots on 3 types of roll film.

    I've tried upping the shot volume too; more shots of the same subject, more subjects even if they weren't all that exciting to me. That hasn't gotten me any more keepers though, typically just more stuff to wade through.

    Don't get me wrong, roll film cameras have there place in my life, but sheet film is darn handy for low volume work.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin



 

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