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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by aoresteen View Post
    E.von Hoegh,

    Thanks! But now I'm more confused. If these Dagor Series III lens cells were made by Goerz in Germany before Goerz was absorbed by Zeiss in 1926, are you saying Goerz never sold them? That they *ALL* became left-overs that B&J bought after WWII?

    It seems to me that Goerz would have sold some of them and Zeiss may have sold them for some time until they retooled and engraved them differently. Per Dan's reference my Dagor dates to 1923. Seems to me that we can conclude that it was a genuine Dagor (front cell at least) lens.

    Just because B&J bought a bunch of them after WWII doesn't mean that Goerz DID NOT sell any of them before 1926.

    So I conclude that there are some Dagor Series III lenses that exist that are not from B&J but from Goerz. Since mine is in a Compur Rapid of 1934-1951 it *COULD* be a B&J remount or a remount by someone else. What if it was remounted in 1938? I guess the shutter serial number would also be a clue as to age. The serial number of 311,589 doesn't make sense as that would put it around 1917:

    http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Compur_serial_numbers.

    I decided to remove the cable release mount to see if there were any hidden serial numbers. Bingo! The serial number is 4,311,589 making it a 1937 shutter.

    Full serial number:

    Attachment 78724

    Hidden serial number:

    Attachment 78725

    I think my Compur Rapid was modified for use with a cable release. I don't think that Compur would have released it from the factory with one serial number digit hidden. Who added it? Would B&J have done it?

    What bothers me is the blank aperture scale. Did B&J remount lenses and NOT provide an aperture scale? Seems to me that they would provide an aperture scale with a lens that they remounted. But mine is blank and looks like it is factory original. When buying replacement shutters you get a blank aperture scale plate. So why would B&J add a cable release adapter and not an aperture scale? I have never examined any B&J remounted Dagors so if anyone has a sample photos that would be helpful.


    So at this point I think it is reasonable to assume that the lens was remounted by an independent repair shop and not by B&J. Given the shutter date I think it was remounted pre-WWII as it had the added cable release adapter.

    Thoughts?
    Please read my last post again, as well as my previous posts. I thought I explained it very clearly... You may wish to do your own research rather than speculate and argue with my research, the end result will be the same - you have a B&J remount.Post WWII. Period.
    Someone may have screwed the cells into an earlier shutter to sell the thing, that is why I told you to test it.
    'bye.
    Last edited by E. von Hoegh; 12-19-2013 at 11:25 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #12
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    Thanks. I have re-read you posts and they are quite confusing.

    Simple question: Was my Dagor front cell made by Goerz in 1923? Yes or no will suffice.
    Tony
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    http://www.oresteen.com/ROLLEI4X4.htm

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by aoresteen View Post
    Thanks. I have re-read you posts and they are quite confusing.

    Simple question: Was my Dagor front cell made by Goerz in 1923? Yes or no will suffice.
    From the above post: "...you have a B&J remount.Post WWII. Period." That would be "no".

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by aoresteen View Post
    Thanks. I have re-read you posts and they are quite confusing.

    Simple question: Was my Dagor front cell made by Goerz in 1923? Yes or no will suffice.
    Tony, Emil's right about the engravings "Serie" and "Series". Y'r lens' trim ring is incorrect, probably is, as he said, a B&J fabrication. There's no reason why the serial number on it is right.

    What Emil didn't tell you is that it seems that many of the lens elements B&J came by were rejects that weren't, for some reason, sent back to be remelted. This is why B&J's Dagors and other lenses are viewed with suspicion.

    Y'r front cell may have been made by Goerz. Or it may not. Zeiss cataloged f/6.8 Dagors as late as 1933 (see http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/zeiss_3.html) It isn't clear whether Dagors sold that late were made by Goerz and Zeiss removed them from stock as they were needed or were made by Zeiss. So your lens' elements could have been made by either firm. We know that Zeiss made some Dagor elements; I have a 45/9 CZJ Goerz Dagor that, according to Thiele, was made in 1937 to a 1934 design.

    Cheers,

    Dan

  5. #15

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    Goerz New York, 1930s - shutter not original - http://www.ebay.com/itm/GOERZ-DAGOR-...item2585fa3707

    Goerz New York about 1906-1908 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/GOERZ-DAGOR-...item20dcb2e342

    Goerz Berlin late teens, no "serie" http://www.ebay.com/itm/Goertz-168mm...item51b4689407

    Goerz Berlin late teens with "serie" - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Goerz-Berlin...item3cda0dd89f

    Goerz Berlin early twenties - this is how your lens would be marked if it was real. http://www.ebay.com/itm/C-P-Goerz-Be...item565eaa7b6e

    A bit of advice - don't make a thread asking a question, and then argue with every answer that does not go along with your preconceived speculations.
    Last edited by E. von Hoegh; 12-19-2013 at 02:57 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #16
    aoresteen's Avatar
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    Thanks Dan. So Goerz or Zeiss made the GLASS part and B&J made the METAL parts. The serial numbers were assigned by B&J. Sorry for being so slow on this.

    What still confuesses me is the lack of the aperture scale. Did B&J release re-mounted Dagors without aperture scales? Seems odd that they would since they went to the trouble to make the front cell holder and engraved the name ect on it. Has anyone seen B&J Dagors with a blank aperture scale besides mine?
    Tony
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    Cambo 23SF, Hasselblad, Mamiya M645, Rolleiflex 2.8C
    Rollei 4x4 Grey
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    Olympus OM-1 OM-2

    http://www.oresteen.com/ROLLEI4X4.htm

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by aoresteen View Post
    Thanks Dan. So Goerz or Zeiss made the GLASS part and B&J made the METAL parts. The serial numbers were assigned by B&J. Sorry for being so slow on this.

    What still confuesses me is the lack of the aperture scale. Did B&J release re-mounted Dagors without aperture scales? Seems odd that they would since they went to the trouble to make the front cell holder and engraved the name ect on it. Has anyone seen B&J Dagors with a blank aperture scale besides mine?
    From my post above - "Someone may have screwed the cells into an earlier shutter to sell the thing, that is why I told you to test it."

    Are you actually reading this thread, or not?

  8. #18
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    Emil,

    Don't be so pompus. Your post was confusing. Thank you for your help. I still don't know when it was made but I do now know it is a B&J remount.
    Tony
    Newnan, GA

    Cambo 23SF, Hasselblad, Mamiya M645, Rolleiflex 2.8C
    Rollei 4x4 Grey
    Leica M4-P M3 IIIf RD Contax IIa Nikon SP
    Olympus OM-1 OM-2

    http://www.oresteen.com/ROLLEI4X4.htm

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by aoresteen View Post
    Emil,

    Don't be so pompus. Your post was confusing. Thank you for your help. I still don't know when it was made but I do now know it is a B&J remount.
    The cells may have been put in metal by B&J. There's no guarantee the B&J put the cells in the shutter they're now in, and you shouldn't assume that they did.

    Yes, someone put the cells in a Compur Rapid. Who dunnit? Beats me. I've replaced replacement shutters m'self.

  10. #20

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    I don't think the OP's confusion was egregious. Reading through this thread, I had some of the same confusion about the source of the glass vs. the source of the cell mountings---it seems that the former is Goerz, the latter B&J, and the shutter mounting is from yet a third source.

    So the serial number comes from B&J, and maybe the cell can be dated on that basis. But the absence of an aperture scale on the shutter suggests that B&J didn't do that part; I think you're right that they would have marked it for aperture if it were their doing.

    There's nothing too surprising in any of this---mounting a lens in a shutter, assuming the threads are the same, is something absolutely anybody can do. Now, whoever did that, did they get the spacing right between the front and rear cells? The easiest way to find out is to test the lens.

    -NT
    Nathan Tenny
    San Diego, CA, USA

    The lady of the house has to be a pretty swell sort of person to put up with the annoyance of a photographer.
    -The Little Technical Library, _Developing, Printing, And Enlarging_

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