Antique Goerz lens info requested

[Behan]

Hi Folks,

Recently, while browsing through a local antique shop I found a bunch of old plate cameras (2 + random bits). I was particularly interested in because amongst them was 3 old lenses in shutters. They are in really good condition and the shutters all fire and sound reasonably accurate (calibrated ears).

My question is this, I shoot 8x10 and would love to be able to use some of these old lenses if they covered the neg. If anyone can give me more info on these I'd really appreciate it, specifically, coverage and what I should expect to pay. The details are as follows (as transcribed from the lenses):

Lens 1) 200mm Universal aplamat extra rapid in compur shutter
Lens 2) 168mm Goerz doppel anastigmat serie iii in compur shutter
Lens 3) 240mm Goerz Pantar in compur shutter

I've read a little about goerz lenses on 8x10 but these are all quite small, maybe 2 1/2" in diameter. I've also posted a request for info about the pantar before and apparently its a convertable lens - how does this work - it's only got two cells - a back and a front.

Thanks in advance,

Niall

[John Koehrer]

Behan,
I believe the 168 is a precursor to the Dagor, same lens-different name. From what I've read it might do 5X7.
The convertible gives 3 focal lengths.
1)combined
2)rear group only
3)front group only(installed on back of shutter)
You should have three aperture ranges engraved on the aperture ring if this is the case.
I doubt that any of the lenses will cover 8X10 but you might be able to do table top with any of them with pretty neat results.

[Ole]

Lens 1) 200mm Universal aplamat extra rapid in compur shutter
Lens 2) 168mm Goerz doppel anastigmat serie iii in compur shutter
Lens 3) 240mm Goerz Pantar in compur shutter

The Universal Aplanat har a sharp image field of about 30 degrees at full opening, which should be around f:8. Sharp field increases to about 60 degrees with stopping down. The total image field is larger, but the edges are very soft. Might be OK for portraits? The Goerz version was called Lynkeioskop, Serie E in 1910. There was also the Serie B, f:6.3 which was a "portrait Aplanat" - faster, but even narrower sharp image field.

The Doppel Anastigmat Serie III is, as Shaggy says, a Dagor. Expect 85 degrees of coverage when well stopped down. That gives an image field of just about 300mm, so it might be worth trying on 8x10".

Pantars were "Symmetric convertible anastigmats", which means that the two cells will have approximately the same focal length. The maximum aperture is the key to the construction - if f:6.3 it is symmetric. Does the combined focal length seem to be 24cm, or is that for one cell? there was a 42+42cm which gave 24.1cm combined, but none in my book giving exactly 240mm! Coverage as for the Dagor - 65 to 85 degrees depending on aperture. Single cells at f:12.5 give about 55 degrees coverage - and that is full opening.

Yet again: All data from Hans Schmidt (1910): "Photographisches Hilfsbuch für ernste Arbeit", book I.

[Behan]

Thanks guys,

Shaggy - all lenses are in shutters, so as far as I remember there were no specific engravings on the aperture ring for the Pantar.

Ole - The front cell of the pantar specified 240mm - the rear cell does not have anything written on it.

The antique guy is looking for eur300 for the lot - does this sound reasonable ?

Thanks again,

Niall

[Ole]

It should be fairly easy to see if the Pantar focuses at 24cm or 14cm - just open the shutter and try to get an image on your hand or something. That's how I check FL if there is any doubt

Are the shutters the old dial-set Compur, or newer rim-set? Come to think of it, those lenses may be older than the first Compur shutters anyway!

I think eur300 is a bit more than I'd be willing to pay - but if the Pantar is good (and 240mm combinde FL) I might be willing to part with half that for that lens alone and 150 for the other two doesn't seem so bad. But I'd haggle anyway, and hope to get the lot down to eur200 or so...