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  1. #1
    medform-norm's Avatar
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    alternative ways of mounting Sinar shutter on non-Sinar cameras?

    We found a Sinar Copal shutter for a steal some time ago. We thought it might come in handy for barrel lenses. However, it won't mount of any of the 4x5 view cameras we have, a Peco Junior and a GVII. Does anyone know on which non-Sinar cameras these things can be grafted? I know it fits Horsemans, but these are even more expensive than, say, an old Norma.
    Somehow it seems a little silly to first buy a shutter and then end up having to buy a complete camera system in order to use the darn thang. But if that's how it is, we might do it. Reluctantly. And feeling a wee bit silly.... :rolleyes:

  2. #2
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    I've seen them adapted to wooden cameras behind the front standard, but it would probably be easiest just to get an old Sinar F, F1 or Alpina. They're all pretty cheap these days.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
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  3. #3
    medform-norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David A. Goldfarb
    I've seen them adapted to wooden cameras behind the front standard, but it would probably be easiest just to get an old Sinar F, F1 or Alpina. They're all pretty cheap these days.
    je sais, je sais. If we're patient we'd get an outfit for under $300 on eBay. Somehow the Norma seems easier on the eyes for us, but how are they in terms of use?

    The Alpina doesn't appeal to us at all, and the F's, well, they have these funny sticks sticking out that don't seem stable, even though they might be sturdy as rocks...a bit too much like technical Lego in the eyes of those who grew up around the more old fashioned type colorfull bricks and plates and windows and whatchamacallits.

    say, what about grafting a Sinar front standard on another type monorail, Plaubel preferably, would that be an option?

  4. #4
    Struan Gray's Avatar
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    If you can make an adaptor to use Sinar lensboards on your camera you can mount the shutter back-to-front: you attach the black plastic/resin bit that looks like a bellows frame to the lensboard adapter, and you mount the lens using the clamps on the shutter that would normally grip the bellows.

    With this reversed setup the shutter blades are a centimeter or so closer to the lens (you lose the thickness of the front carrier frame, and the rebate in the shutter itself) so some lenses that are already mounted for the Sinar shutter may project too far to the rear, or their mounting screws may foul the front of the shutter body. You may also have a problem with very heavy lenses flexing the shutter outwards. However, all the shutter controls are usable and readable and the system has worked pretty well for me.

    The Norma-era kit is beautifully made and can be repaired and adjusted if need be. Sinar still carry parts for the plastic inserts on the rail guides and focussing tracks that are sometimes worn or compressed, as well as small parts like the levels that are sometimes dried or missing. Complete Norma 4x5 kits in good condition are pretty cheap in Europe these days.

    You could in theory mix-and-match Plaubel and Sinar standards, but you will need a hybrid bellows and give the prices of the old monorails I personally wouldn't bother. If you can't make a simple lensboard adapter (how big are Plaubel lensboards?) hacking a spare Plaubel front standard to take Sinar lensboard on the front would be your fastest and simplest route.

  5. #5
    Trent Westin's Avatar
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    Stupid question #1:
    Where I can find informations about how to use the Sinar shutter with my Horseman?
    How does it work?
    It takes the place of a normal lensboard?
    Thank you
    TW

  6. #6
    medform-norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trent Westin
    Stupid question #1:
    Where I can find informations about how to use the Sinar shutter with my Horseman?
    How does it work?
    It takes the place of a normal lensboard?
    Thank you
    TW
    Uhmmm, perhaps try the Horseman company itself? If they're a nice bunch, they'll send you all the documentation you need.

    We've had a similar experience with the people from Plaubel lately. I always was a little afraid to contact them, but I have found out they actually live on the same planet as I do and yes, they're helpful and try to help their customers, even if you don't spend megabucks on a new camera but looking for obsolete parts for some old wreck bearing their name....

  7. #7
    medform-norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Struan Gray
    If you can make an adaptor to use Sinar lensboards on your camera you can mount the shutter back-to-front: you attach the black plastic/resin bit that looks like a bellows frame to the lensboard adapter, and you mount the lens using the clamps on the shutter that would normally grip the bellows.

    With this reversed setup the shutter blades are a centimeter or so closer to the lens (you lose the thickness of the front carrier frame, and the rebate in the shutter itself) so some lenses that are already mounted for the Sinar shutter may project too far to the rear, or their mounting screws may foul the front of the shutter body. You may also have a problem with very heavy lenses flexing the shutter outwards. However, all the shutter controls are usable and readable and the system has worked pretty well for me.

    The Norma-era kit is beautifully made and can be repaired and adjusted if need be. Sinar still carry parts for the plastic inserts on the rail guides and focussing tracks that are sometimes worn or compressed, as well as small parts like the levels that are sometimes dried or missing. Complete Norma 4x5 kits in good condition are pretty cheap in Europe these days.

    You could in theory mix-and-match Plaubel and Sinar standards, but you will need a hybrid bellows and give the prices of the old monorails I personally wouldn't bother. If you can't make a simple lensboard adapter (how big are Plaubel lensboards?) hacking a spare Plaubel front standard to take Sinar lensboard on the front would be your fastest and simplest route.
    Struan, thanks for the extensive answer and your time.

    All the evidence points towards getting a new camera, possible a Norma. (We lost out on a Horseman 450 yesterday at eBay, but I wasn't too sorry, it looked too new). Neither the Plaubel Peco Junior 9x12 nor the GVII can be adapted to take the Sinar shutter as it is simply too big to be fitted, or it would be very much in the way and obstruct movements. We'd need to get an extra Plaubel Peco Universal standard to perform hacks, but that's as silly as getting a Norma, isn't it?

    Reversing the shutter would not be a good option, as we tend to have more heavy than light lenses, the heaviest being a large glass of the Schulze and Billerbeck name which must weight near or more than 1 kg. It would ruin the shutter when mounted to the wrong side of it. Now that would really be the epitome of silliness, wouldn't it?

    I guess it's hunting time then...!

    Norm

  8. #8
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by medform-norm

    Reversing the shutter would not be a good option, as we tend to have more heavy than light lenses, the heaviest being a large glass of the Schulze and Billerbeck name which must weight near or more than 1 kg. It would ruin the shutter when mounted to the wrong side of it. Now that would really be the epitome of silliness, wouldn't it?

    I guess it's hunting time then...!

    Norm
    Umm, you could get a P2 ???
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  9. #9
    medform-norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by df cardwell
    Umm, you could get a P2 ???
    Ahw man, a P2? Way too new, way too spiffy, way too much like technical Lego, way too expensive for us cheapskates. Remember, I am in this position only and only because that Copal shutter was so darn cheap I couldn't pass on buying it in the vague hope that it would fit the GVII....

    [However, if I'd find a P2 for as cheap as the Copal, I'd think twice before letting it pass. Like on the french forum where someone could buy a Sinar P 8x10 plus lens for under $500....if I was the buyer, I'd feel a little uncomfortable towards the seller.]

  10. #10

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    I assume that you are talking about the sinar auto aperture shutter. In order to use that shutter you need more than just the shutter, you need the DB or DB-M lensboards matched to your lens and not just matched as per shutter type like copal 0,1 or 3, but f stop matched. Also the distances involved between the lens. DB board and shutter are very precise and any adaptation of a different camera system to make it work is just a waste of time and money. If you are determined to use this type of shutter then I suggest that you buy a Sinar camera.

    One thing that you should know about the auto aperture shutter is that if you intend to use it with slow shutter exposures, i.e. non flash, then you can expect a loss of sharpness due to shutter shake.

    As for the stability of the F model Sinars, they are very stable, not quite as stable as a P or P2. I would suggest a Sinar F2 as it has more rigidity in the front standard than the F1 model, it also has fine focus on the front and back standards.

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