I recently acquired a lens that is labelled:
'GOERZ DAGOR F:6.8 FOCUS 9 1/2 IN. No.222689'
Can anyone identify what type of Dagor it might be and when it was produced? I've looked all over the WWW and can only find a 222*** Goerz series that appears far too old for this particular lens. The lens is coated but not multicoated and there is no country of origin marking on the lens it is in an Alphax shutter. It belonged to a photography professor in Rochester and it seems like a pretty nice piece of glass.
it's probably from Burke & James in the 1950's, they bought up all the Goerz stock left over after the big German merger in the 1920's. they also coated most of the lenses they sold, be careful with it, it's softer than modern coatings..
The shutter would not be the orig. either. Sanders is right: This lens is far too old for original coating and dates from anywhere between ~1906 and 1910; the shutter is at least 20yrs younger, likely a 1940s model. Re: "What type of Dagor"? ...Just the "normal" one..., i.e. no "W.A.", or "Gold-Dot," .... : This 72 degree Dagor (90 degrees at f 32) was sold as a 6.5x8.5" lens (wide open) which was however supposed to be able to cover 11x14" (!) at f 32......(Goerz 1913 catalogue).
So, as a collectors item it ain't worth much, but that doesn't mean it can't be used to take nice pictures, which is also dependent on the shutter re-mount job, as cell spacing was critical with dagors....
The Goerz American Optical company offered factory coating of some of their older lenses after WW2. I have a 12" Dagor which was returned to the factory by it's original owner (a teacher at the Clarence White School of Photography) and coated.
Phfitz, the German C.P.Goerz company which became a part of Zeiss Ikon was a separate company to the Goerz American Optical company.
I tend to agree with Phitz that this lens is likely from the 1950s and not the earlier part of the century. If B&J used their own serials, this might explain the variance and confusion. This is certainly not a 90 year old lens.
Recently, when I had the lens CLA'd they advised that the coating is beginning to degrade slightly. I'm sure this is an after-production coating either from B&J when remarketing or from Goerz.
The lens will be used for 8 x 10 black and white mostly and I plan to get to know it well once my bellows returns from Western Bellows...
it's probably from Burke & James in the 1950's, they bought up all the Goerz stock left over after the big German merger in the 1920's. they also coated most of the lenses they sold, be careful with it, it's softer than modern coatings..
Have fun with it
It's definitely not one of the infamous B&J "Berlin Dagors". Those lenses were assembled using old, loose, and often poorly matched, elements of dubious quality. They were sold by B&J as new "Berlin Dagors" and did not contain the word "Goerz" anywhere on the lens. If they would have, they would have been sued to high heaven by C.P. Goerz AM. OPT. CO.
Lenses made in Germany prior to the German Goerz being absobed by Zeiss-Ikon (ca. 1926) are labeled: "C.P. GOERZ BERLIN".
Lenses made in Germany after the Zeiss merger are labeled: "Carl Zeiss Jena" and "Goerz-Dagor".
Lenses made by the American Goerz company were engraved with a number of different designations over the years. The lens shown above is definitely a pre-WWII US made Dagor. The simple "GOERZ DAGOR" was the engraving style they used at that time. Later, possibly post-WWII, perhaps a little earlier (I'd have to comb though old catalogs to nail down a date), they switched to labeling their lenses "C.P. GOERZ AM.OPT.CO". This designation remained until around 1963 or 1964 when they changed the company name and labeling to read" "GOERZ OPTICAL CO. INC.". And then there were the later Kern made Dagors during the Kollmorgen (early 1970s) and Schneider (1970s and early 1980s) years. Those are easy to tell as they are all labeled "Lens made in Switzerland". There may have been other permutations, especially in the very early years of the American Goerz company, but those are the main ones I know of off the top of my head.
As I stated above, any Dagors assembled from loose elements by Burke and James are labeled as "BERLIN DAGOR" absent the word Goerz.
The specific lens pictured in this thread is definitely decades older than the shutter it is presently mounted in. As others have stated, the shutter is not original. It's definitely a remount. Also, the date of manufacture of the lens pre-dates commercially viable coating technology by many years. So, if it is coated (it doesn't look like it is in the attached photo, but it's impossible to tell for sure form a small jpeg image), it was coated years later - possibly at the same time the lens was mounted in the shutter. If it was retrocoated, the coating (and shutter mounting for that matter) may have been done by B&J. It may have been done by C.P. Goerz AM Optical, or maybe someone else. I have seen genuine Goerz lenses that were retrocoated by B&J. I've even seen one in a box that contained a little slip of paper stating that it had been coated by Burke and James. Although coating reduces flare and increases contrast, uncoated Dagors are perfectly usable. The Dagor is a cemented design. So, it only has four air:glass interfaces (compared to an Artar or WF Ektar that have eight air:glass interfaces and benefit much more from coating).
Kerry, my 12" f6.8 Dagor was made in 1939 or 1940 and is marked Goerz Dagor just like Thorney's, however the shutter adjustment dial is marked Goerz A.M. Opt.
There's no reason Thorney's lens can't actually be 90 years old, the design and manufacture of the optical cells would be similar. Additionally the later coating of the lens would give it a much newer appearnce.
Kerry, my 12" f6.8 Dagor was made in 1939 or 1940 and is marked Goerz Dagor just like Thorney's, however the shutter adjustment dial is marked Goerz A.M. Opt.
Ian,
Thanks for the info. That date, right around the beginning if WWII seems about right for when the American Goerz started labeling things "C.P. GOERZ AM. OPT. CO." The AM. stood for American. The original C.P. Goerz was obviously a German company, and Goerz is a very German sounding name. So, here in the states, at that particular time in history, it would have been very wise from a marketing standpoint to make sure your potential customers knew you were an American company and proud of it.
Originally Posted by Ian Grant
There's no reason Thorney's lens can't actually be 90 years old, the design and manufacture of the optical cells would be similar. Additionally the later coating of the lens would give it a much newer appearnce.
Oh, most definitely. Based on the serial number and the simple "Goerz Dagor" labeling, I'd say it's definitely ~90 years old. I can see no reason to think otherwise. The newer, non-original shutter and after-market coating make it appear newer, and would have brought it up to then current standards in the late 1940s or early 1950s, but the lens itself is definitely considerably older.
Goerz AM Opt had of course been a supplier of lenses to the military in World War 1 and were a very patriotic American manufacturer, presumably William and Otto Goerz had become American citizens. CP Goerz American Optical was founded in 1905, and was totally independent by 1911.
However Carl Paul Goerz in Germany was contracted by the German government to supply their armed forces.
Ian
Originally Posted by kthalmann
The original C.P. Goerz was obviously a German company, and Goerz is a very German sounding name. So, here in the states, at that particular time in history, it would have been very wise from a marketing standpoint to make sure your potential customers knew you were an American company and proud of it.
Kerry
Last edited by Ian Grant; 04-26-2007 at 06:53 PM.
Reason: Typo
Adv Reply
, i.e. no "W.A.", or "Gold-Dot," .... : This 72 degree Dagor (90 degrees at f 32) was sold as a 6.5x8.5" lens (wide open) which was however supposed to be able to cover 11x14" (!) at f 32......(Goerz 1913 catalogue).
Originally Posted by phfitz
