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  1. #21
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    If "they" say so, it must be true.
    "They" being Ekfe (MACO). I mentioned the data sheet in the preceding sentence, therefore "they" clearly referred to the publishers of the data sheet. The data sheet says that based on testing, exposure of 35mm cassettes to ambient light is worse than having the cassettes scanned by carry-on x-ray machines.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    I was always told that this is a pure bullshit photo myth...
    Emphasis added by me

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    "They" being Ekfe (MACO). I mentioned the data sheet in the preceding sentence, therefore "they" clearly referred to the publishers of the data sheet...
    OK, but who are the others who have "always" told you?

  3. #23
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    Emphasis added by me

    OK, but who are the others who have "always" told you?
    I did not use an emphasis on "always". My phrase was "I was always told". As in "any time the issue has come up in my life"; making "I was always told" a perfectly appropriate choice of phrase to convey my meaning. This means any time I have asked an instructor to confirm it, or heard anyone ask someone whose technical knowledge I trust. (The Efke data sheet is one of these sources.)

    Do you have anything to argue about besides semantics? If you think I am wrong about IR penetrating tanks, say so. Present what you know about the situation. But don't waste our time by being a pedantic troll and picking apart my every word looking for errors. I never claimed to be 100% right, and the way I phrased the question was asking for more commentary on the plastic tank issue from someone who may know more than I.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 05-01-2009 at 08:11 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildbill View Post
    There are certain moderators here who get angry when a member posts a thread on more than one photo site. Since I pay subscriber fees here, I posted it here first. Thanks though.
    Perhaps if you posted on THE OTHER SITE in pig latin? Maybe the moderator won't notice. Why would you care what the moderator here thinks? They only think they are gods. *L* (I just watched '300')

    I've never had an issue with this. There are two sets of subscribers to the two sites. An intersecting but not identical ven diagram.

    tim in san jose
    Where ever you are, there you be.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    ...This means any time I have asked an instructor to confirm it, or heard anyone ask someone whose technical knowledge I trust. (The Efke data sheet is one of these sources.)...
    In the past you have described yourself as a student. One of the most valuable lessons you will learn, although perhaps not right away, is to rely absolutely only on technical knowledge you've verified personally. Instructors, data sheets and all other information sources are best questioned rather than accepted as is.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    ...Do you have anything to argue about besides semantics?...
    Semantics is the study of meaning. Posters here and on other forums participate using words. If we don't consider the meaning of what is written, very little real communication results. My posts in this thread were intended to illuminate, not to argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    ...But don't waste our time by being a pedantic troll and picking apart my every word looking for errors...
    This highlights two things you may need a few more decades to learn. First, personal attacks from a defensive crouch are inappropriate, especially when the target's comments and posting behavior in no way fit the epithet used. Second, emotional reactions to constructive input can blind one to the value of what's being said. Reiterating, my posts were meant to point out the value of questioning everything. Pedagogy, not pedanticism. They weren't made, as a troll would make them, to simply pick apart your words.

    Good luck as you progress on your journey through life. Really!

  6. #26

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    My God, Sal, I thought this was about a bellows problem, not semantics and other things that have nothing to do with the subject at all !!!

    You have a problem with your bellows ? Fine ! Go to the guy who made it and solve it with them !
    And if you try to do it in this way with them ........ good luck and good riddens !

    Peter

  7. #27
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    I used to have some horseman bellows that were not IR-proof.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

    [APUG Portfolio] [APUG Blog] [Website]

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by archphoto View Post
    My God, Sal, I thought this was about a bellows problem, not semantics and other things that have nothing to do with the subject at all !!!

    You have a problem with your bellows ? Fine ! Go to the guy who made it and solve it with them !
    And if you try to do it in this way with them ........ good luck and good riddens !

    Peter
    Peter, you seem to be confused. I'm not the original poster. I don't have any problem with my bellows. This thread is about IR opacity. When I made a post that suggested it's wise to question blanket assertions an attack resulted. My most recent post simply responded with an explanation.

    What "way" do you refer to when ending with "good luck and good riddens?" Is clear communication something to be disdained? Should only those who embrace ambiguity post on forums? Please explain.

  9. #29
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    I'm not sure why posts often end up this way. Thanks guys, lots of class here!
    www.vinnywalsh.com

    I know what I want but I just don't know how to go about gettin' it.-Hendrix

  10. #30
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildbill View Post
    I'm not sure why posts often end up this way. Thanks guys, lots of class here!
    Sal, it seems that my meaning was not understood by you. In reality, we are in agreement about ambiguous use of "they", etc. In response to a statement that IMO is much more like the kind of statement by which you are bothered (and by which I am also bothered), I stated what I have learned, with at least some semblance of a reference, unlike the person to whom I was responding. The "they" I used referred directly to the film company I had just mentioned, and was not an ambiguous "they". I deliberately chose the words I did so that it was not a proclamation of absolute fact; inviting other ideas. If you disagree about the plastic tank thingy, please say so and say why.

    Two of my classmates are a lady who just turned 60, and a lady who has not even graduated high school yet. I am older than two of my instructors! The word "student" does not have an age limit, and does not equate with young and immature as a rule...and being older in no way makes one more correct as a judge of how others need to change. I had nearly half a career before I went to college for journalism and discovered photography classes instead, so I find your assumption of my age to be in need of reconsideration.

    ...and, I just have to ask; Do you really think I would make such a statement without ever having processed IR film in a plastic vessel? No. I, personally, would not. I have done HIE, EIR, and Efke IR820 in plastic tanks (and the Efke in open trays), not to mention soliciting the experience of those with more experience than myself, and, of course, reading data sheets. You and I feel the same way about blanket statements, etc. I think you have picked an unsuitable target for such criticisms.

    The main issue is that the things you are needling me about - non-stated "they" as a source and statement of fact based on information alone, not personal experience - are things that I did not even do. I simply responded to a statement that something "can be" with similarly disclaimed "I was always told that this is just a myth" statement, and named one source that gave me this info, "at any rate". I would not know how to be any MORE non-committal to a statement than that!
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 05-03-2009 at 03:28 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

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