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  1. #21
    JBrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Nebenzahl View Post
    Sorry to be a party-pooper here, but I hear a whole lot of rationalization going on in this discussion trying to support the upside-down image on the ground glass as being "natural".

    I don't buy it.

    No way is it natural. While I'm sure that those who have viewed such upside-down images hundreds or thousands of times have learned to accommodate it, I don't think anyone can convince me that it's as natural as viewing the scene right-side-up.

    I wish it weren't so, and that my ground glass showed the scene the way I see it with my eyes. But it is, so like everyone else I learn to live with it. But please, get real: don't let's insist that it's easy or "natural".
    Actually the human brain is very accommodating when it comes to vision and spatial direction, so an inverted image can be reconciled quite easily if it is presented enough times, or for a long enough duration. In other words it can be learned. Once learned, it is for all intents and purposes "natural" to one who has acquired the skill. Look up the experiments of Dalibor Vesely if you find this interesting.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Nebenzahl View Post
    .... so like everyone else I learn to live with it. But please, get real: don't let's insist that it's easy or "natural".
    I think that the notion of "natural" is intended to simply mean that composing on the view camera gg has become so routine as to not be worthy of notice or comment, or complaint by those who do it regularly. That's how I think of it, at least. I even practice at home by looking at photographs in books, that I'm certain were made with LF cameras, upside down to emulate what the photographer saw. Of course it isn't "natural" in the literal sense, but it certainly has become familiar.
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  3. #23

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    Walking on two legs isn't natural either. But many of us do it.

  4. #24
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    Seeing an "upside-down" image as natural is very natural! In fact, that is how our brain receives the image in the first place. The basic law of optics dictates that the image thrown upon our retina by the lens of our eye must be upside down and backwards...yet we perceive it as right-side up and non-reversed. So this is an exercise our brains are quite familiar with.

    It is easy, at least for me -- I did not have to work hard at all to find the upside down and backwards image to be comfortable and natural way to view the scene in front of me on the GG.

    Vaughn
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

  5. #25

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    The Image is Upside Down & Backwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaughn View Post
    Seeing an "upside-down" image as natural is very natural! In fact, that is how our brain receives the image in the first place. The basic law of optics dictates that the image thrown upon our retina by the lens of our eye must be upside down and backwards...yet we perceive it as right-side up and non-reversed. So this is an exercise our brains are quite familiar with.

    It is easy, at least for me -- I did not have to work hard at all to find the upside down and backwards image to be comfortable and natural way to view the scene in front of me on the GG.

    Vaughn
    Finally, someone who go it right. I too, have no problem seeing this way.

    What I still have problems with are camera, like Med-Format, that are right side up, but backwards.

    This still drives me crazy.

    Give me, both, ( Upside Down & Backwards ), or neither, ( normal viewing ).

    Not Right side Up , but still Backwards.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaughn View Post
    Seeing an "upside-down" image as natural is very natural! In fact, that is how our brain receives the image in the first place. The basic law of optics dictates that the image thrown upon our retina by the lens of our eye must be upside down and backwards...yet we perceive it as right-side up and non-reversed. So this is an exercise our brains are quite familiar with.
    Vaughn
    I knew someone would bring this up.

    Yes, that's the way our optical sensory system works. But it sure as hell doesn't mean that viewing a scene upside down is "natural"; the view is 180 degrees out of whack, unless one is standing on their head.

    Oh, well. People like to rationalize all kinds of stuff. Who am I to stand in their way?
    I'm mostly interested in the equipment in and of itself. Pictures are just a side effect.

  7. #27

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    I just hang my pictures upside down and then they look fine

    Seriously though...I don't notice it's uside down...and not even wrong way round (left and right)....I think we don't give our brains enough credit..

    Kal
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  8. #28
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBrunner View Post
    Actually the human brain is very accommodating when it comes to vision and spatial direction, so an inverted image can be reconciled quite easily if it is presented enough times, or for a long enough duration.
    It certainly is. I remember seeing an article about this where someone was fitted with glasses which inverted the image. After a while the brain gets used to it and it seems normal. The subject in this case found that when he removed the glasses after a few days everything was then upside down as his brain got used to it and inverted the image for him.

    A similar thing happens if you watch TV whilst lying on the sofa. Although the TV image is actually rotated 90 degrees to your eye, your brain does the post processing and you think you are viewing it the right way round.



    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaughn View Post
    Seeing an "upside-down" image as natural is very natural! In fact, that is how our brain receives the image in the first place. The basic law of optics dictates that the image thrown upon our retina by the lens of our eye must be upside down and backwards...yet we perceive it as right-side up and non-reversed. So this is an exercise our brains are quite familiar with.

    It is easy, at least for me -- I did not have to work hard at all to find the upside down and backwards image to be comfortable and natural way to view the scene in front of me on the GG.

    Vaughn
    This has always happened for me so fast that I never think about it. I did not comment on this thread about it because I just thought it was me. As a left handed person, I learned to do left-right reversals so I could learn to do what the teacher was doing with her hands.

    Steve
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  10. #30
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    Well David, if you wish to be closed-minded about it, that is your choice. But I have observed otherwise. If you wish, try this experiment. Spend an hour or two on your back with your head hanging back so that the world is viewed upside down..perhaps watch TV as Steve suggests. In an hour, observe how the world seems to be orientated. Then close your eyes, sit up and see if the world looks oriented "normally" immediately after opening your eyes.

    This is actually how I experienced this the first time...before I ever used a view camera. I was floating on my back on a Texas lake back in the early 70's. Of course, the above experiment might fail...your mind might be too inflexible.

    Vaughn
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

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