5x7 films availability

[Sal Santamaura]

Sal, it helps if you know what is going on in the market...

Van, I'm completely conversant with what's going on in the market.

...number of mfrs of film cameras (for large format) has actually increased ...Chamonix are newcomers. The product lines are expanding....formats like...6.5x8.5...and other odd sizes have been added...We have over 15 mfrs of large format cameras (...Ebony...First, decide what part of the industry is suffering before you say film is near dead...

I encouraged Chamonix to expand its production and number of formats, ordered the first Ebony 6x5x8.5 camera and never said film is near dead. Please reread my quote:

...I don't believe it will be too many years before all color sheet film is gone. In my opinion, unless you're interested in black and white, large format may not be the thing to pursure. I also suspect the end of color film in other formats won't be far behind...

Note my statement is limited to color film

...The market is smaller, film choices in large format are leaner (but all there), and new film products developed (Ektar 100)...Don't just look at the small format mkt and tell us film is dead...Well, if film is dead, I got to ask....do you have a P65 digital back...

Color film still exists and Kodak decided to expand the sizes it coats Ektar in, but the market is shrinking. I see black and white film surviving for at least a couple of decades, perhaps longer, but not color. I don't have a P65 digital back, but did purchase a Canon G9 several years ago under pressure from the publisher of a specialty magazine for which my wife writes an occasional article. I don't like it and use it only for that purpose, but having my color 4x5s scanned was becoming difficult and unacceptable for the publication. Many, if not most, publications now insist on receiving digital files.

Color film sales are driven by snapshooters and commercial work. Both of those market segments are on a steep glide slope toward volume so low it won't support Kodak and/or Fuji. The few folks such as you who do fine work from color film originals won't keep color film around no matter how much you want it to be there.

B&H has Kodak Porta 160NC and Ektachrome tungsten in 5X7. Not a bunch of choices. Bill Barber

The 160NC requires that one purchase a minimum of 30 boxes:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...50_Sheets.html

The EPY is not 5x7, it's 13x18cm

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...6118_13_x.html

and Kodak has announced that EPY is discontinued in all formats. So if you want that, order a lifetime supply and make sure you have some 13x18cm holders to put it in.

[Van Camper]

"(4) 4x5's make an 8x10, not 2 . I know, I'm being picky "

-Dan

If you read it again, it says two 4x5's make 4x10.

[Van Camper]

"Color film still exists and Kodak decided to expand the sizes it coats Ektar in, but the market is shrinking. I see black and white film surviving for at least a couple of decades, perhaps longer, but not color. Color film sales are driven by snapshooters and commercial work. Both of those market segments are on a steep glide slope toward volume so low it won't support Kodak and/or Fuji. The few folks such as you who do fine work from color film originals won't keep color film around no matter how much you want it to be there."

Color going, only b/w? Hey, you've been at APUG too long, join another forum and get back to reality. I do wildlife art, and a lot of people are shooting film and digital, and color only. You choose what is appropriate for the situation. BW is a small segment in the art world.

Shrinking? The steep decline you speak of has already happened (the smoke is over in the 35mm and 120 market). About 75% of the market is amateur/pro-sumer/wedding/journalist/sports/magazine, and they already went to a dslr that satisfies their needs 100%....it was at its worse around 2006. Most of the restructuring has taken place, we're now seeing fine tuning (the big stuff like closing labs, retail stores dumping film cameras is done). These were all expected in a market chopped in half when digital technology arrived. Yet at Photokina 2008 everyone was reporting "large format" film sales have stabilized (from the horses mouth...the reps) http://www.apug.org/forums/forum172/...news-film.html and also check ....
http://www.thiaps.com/editors/ . So we will see what Photokina 2010 brings.

It is not over for large format...
1. We have over 15 mfrs of large format equipment, and product lines are expanding.
2. We've seen upgrades to the Technica, Technorama, Fotoman, Chamonix, etc.....not
something you see if things are ending for an industry.
2. Kodak made a 10 year guarantee to supply film.
3. You don't get rid of something until you have something of equal quality that is
affordable. Not even the p65 digital back matches 4x5, and we have a long way to
go for 8x10.
4. Alternative processes- nothing in digital to match contact print quality up to 20x24
5. New formats introduced (eg- 5x8, 7x17)...you would think what we have would be
enough, but now we have ultra large format.
6. Digital is still unable to satisfy many other needs such as:

- large format film is still the "high-end" in photography (excluding stitching, and scan backs which are not practical).
- large format film allows making the biggest prints (a p45 is good only to 27 inches at 300ppi before running out of pixels)
- film has a "proven" long life, a important criteria for fine artists. It can be scanned 50 yrs from now on an office flatbed. No need for multiple hard drives, or constantly backing up to newer technology, or worry about obsolete drivers/operating system (apple) and software .
- costs- cheap to buy, cheap to shoot (pay-as-you-go). No heavy depreciation from sitting around in the closet. Perfect for wedding/sports/magazine photographers who never have a need for a p65 digital back, but would like to do personal work at the best quality level.
- film is the best choice in extreme conditions (snow/rain/heat/cold/sandy/underwater/hiking). Ruining a roll or sheet of film is far cheaper then a $40k digital back.
- film offers cheap backup. Can you afford 2 digital backs for $40k in the field?
- film satisfies the needs of elderly market (not comfy with computers, downloading, etc).
- film satisfies needs of poorer countries. This is why 35mm film is still updated. Not everyone can afford to follow the 18mth cycle. Different parts of the world are years behind.
- film is needed to satisfy existing users of medium format (and combined with a Nikon 9000 beats any dslr). A 6x9/612 negative scanned on a drum or Nikon 9000 (stitched) will outperform a P45 at 30 inches or bigger because it doesn't run out of pixels under heavy enlargement.
- film doesn't need repairs, digital backs do (a $40k back will hit the wallet like a drum scanner needing servicing).

If your still not sure, why did FUji introduce the new Folder 6x7 FILM camera? Why introduce Ektar 100 in large format up to 8x10? Sure the market is far smaller, it is a niche specialty market now. You now order your 120 and large format film, or camera, and processing is moving that way to (process at home or by mail). It is about demand and supply..... and lesser choices in a smaller market. The problem is too many amateurs making amateur comments...they see film cameras disappear at wallmart, all their friends shooting dslr, labs disappearing, and they think it is all over....yet never have seen a large format camera in their life.

As for some of your films disappearing...come on, it's not like we don't have film choices in transparency or negative. A smaller market means less choices, get use to it (remember the market got chopped in half and digital is good for some things, and film for others). Some people just like traditional ways, that is enough reason...loading film, under the cloth, big groundglass, not spray and pray, and the smell of fixer (next best to coffee).

Digital is now reaching maturity, and still it has not killed film. Instead how many times do you hear of a digital shooter wanting more quality then his 5DII provides, and large format suits his needs for further quality while adding tilt/swing and perspective control.

[AgX]

Fuji:

Provia 100F

Velvia 50

Velvia 100

Velvia 100F


Ilford:

Ortho (13x18)

FP 4

HP5

Delta 100


Foma:

Fomapan 100 (13x18)


Efke:

Efke 25

Efke 100


Rollei:

Rollei Ortho

[Fredrik Sandstrom]

Thanks for the list AgX! Since you're in Germany, can you suggest a European source for these Fuji films? Because of customs and taxes, I'd much prefer to order from inside EU.

Fuji:
Provia 100F
Velvia 50
Velvia 100
Velvia 100F

[AgX]

For those I just looked at listings of Fuji Japan, which should be the most accurate concerning principle product availability. I did not check for European sources.

[Fredrik Sandstrom]

For those I just looked at listings of Fuji Japan, which should be the most accurate concerning principle product availability.

Where did you find those listings? On www.fujifilm.com only Velvia 100F is mentioned as being available in 13x18 cm; none in 5x7. (Among the reversal films.)

[AgX]

At their homemarket (Japanese) site.

[Sal Santamaura]

...you've been at APUG too long, join another forum and get back to reality. I do wildlife art, and a lot of people are shooting film and digital, and color only. You choose what is appropriate for the situation. BW is a small segment in the art world...

Van, I've been participating in a number of photography forums for around a dozen years and am firmly grounded in reality. Your frame of reference for this ("wildlife art" and "the art world") is a very small group of color film consumers. Nothing like the sales volume that existed when snapshooters and commercial users were buying by the truckload.

...the big stuff like closing labs...is done...

There are new threads started here, at the large format forum and elsewhere about labs around the US closing all the time. It's nowhere near done. Labs are where almost every color film user goes for processing. Black and white users mainly develop film at home. There are exceptions to both cases, but that's the general situation.

...It is not over for large format...Kodak made a 10 year guarantee to supply film....You don't get rid of something until you have something of equal quality that is affordable...Alternative processes- nothing in digital to match contact print quality up to 20x24..film has a "proven" long life, a important criteria for fine artists...film is the best choice in extreme conditions (snow/rain/heat/cold/sandy/underwater/hiking)...film satisfies needs of poorer countries...If your still not sure, why did FUji introduce the new Folder 6x7 FILM camera? Why introduce Ektar 100 in large format up to 8x10?...

I don't know where you got the idea that Kodak has or could guarantee to supply film for 10 years. In the first place, that would require Kodak's continued existence for 10 years, something that's by no means certain. Even if the company survives, doing so might require that it abandon film.

Your statement that "you" don't get rid of something until "you" have something of equal quality that is affordable falls down on multiple counts. Both manufacturers (Kodak and Fuji) will get rid of color film when it no longer makes their shareholders what they deem an adequate profit. Neither company has, nor should it have, any concern whether something exists to replace color film that is of equal quality or affordable or, for that matter, exists at all. Contact print quality, long life and tolerance for extreme conditions are irrelevant to most users. Your personal interest in quality is not shared by the vast majority of color image makers. If it were, digital wouldn't have taken off like it has. Fast, "easy" and less expensive rule. All three apply to snapshooters as well as the commercial/wedding photographers who amortize high-priced equipment over large image volumes.

Poorer countries are leapfrogging film as well as landlines and going straight to cell phones with cameras. Fuji introduced the RF670 and Kodak Ektar 100 in sheets because film promoters within each company convinced management that "sufficient" profit could be made in the short term by doing so. Whether they succeed remains to be seen. Neither has any bearing on the long term viability of color film.

...Some people just like traditional ways, that is enough reason...loading film, under the cloth, big groundglass, not spray and pray...Digital is now reaching maturity, and still it has not killed film. Instead how many times do you hear of a digital shooter wanting more quality then his 5DII provides, and large format suits his needs for further quality while adding tilt/swing and perspective control.

I'm among those who like traditional, film-based large format photography. Digital is nowhere near maturity, thus has not killed film. However, the 5DII shooter wanting more quality can try a 1DSMKIII with T/S lenses and/or a MF view camera with digital back. I'm not interested in that, but those digital shooters aren't here on APUG and are much more numerous than even today's APUG membership.

Van, your posts make the case why color film should continue in production from your point of view. However, no matter how much you wish it, I just don't see color film surviving too far into the future. For the duration of HARMAN's site lease I think black and white will be available, especially since the volume of students (which drives Ilford sales) far exceeds "fine art color film" shooters. Let's check back into this thread in 5 and 10 years to see what happens. I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but wouldn't count on it.

[Schlapp]

There's also the Shanghai 5x7 which is nice - especially for alt when developed in print developer