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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by kthalmann
    Jorge,

    Keep in mind the prices Robert listed are LIST PRICES and may be considerably higher than the actual selling prices for these lenses. I have no idea what the actual selling prices will be, but keep in mind the LIST PRICE for the 110mm Super Symmar XL is $3427. Anybody here pay anything close to that much for their 110 XL? I know I sure didn't.

    I'm not saying the new Fine Art XXL lenses will be reasonably priced, or even affordable for us working stiffs, but they might not be quite as outrageous as the prices Robert quoted.

    Kerry
    That's a good point. Badger Graphics gave a better price for my Super Symmar XL, well below recommended list. There is bound to be an amount of new-product-hype associated with the 'Fine Art XXL', and prices to suit.
    Personally I'd find it difficult to justify 10 x the price of a second hand alternative model. Would it really improve your image THAT MUCH??

  2. #12

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    Schneider is missing the point!

    What really gets me is the effort that Schnerider has put into the lenses must be considerable, and they made lenses that have a limited market of maybe 50 units worldwide.

    Now, if Schneider were smart, they would recognize that the era of ultra sharp ULF lenses is over, because nobody uses them for copywork anymore. If they would simply lighten up their standards a bit, they could produce lenses that would have the entire LF/ULF world clamoring for them.

    What I mean is, go back to the origins of the optics industry, and bring out some small, multicoated lenses in modern shutters that have very wide coverage specifications, something like the Hypergon or WA Dagor, which they still have the rights to I presume. Optical designs like the old Pantogon and the Boyer WA and even the old Angulon lenses could all be modified into exceptional ULF and pictorial (read: non-industry, non-copywork) lenses for cameras from about 5x7 on up. (Yes, I know the Pantogon is a Rodenstock design, but you get my point)

    These things would be small, light portable, and of quite simple optical design (with the exception of the Hypergon, I suppose), and could be sold at a price that would be reachable by the average LF/ULF shooter.

    They could just about corner the market if they reintroduced a line of Angulon or Dagor lenses that met all the needs of the contact printers out there, and the potential market would be at least 10,000x the potential for the XXL lenses.

    I'd love to see a modern 180-210mm lens that covers 8x10 with ample movement. Forget about the ship anchor 210 SS XL, give me a modern Angulon!

    Boy, I just can't believe they don't see the market potential for lenses like these. The reality is that almost nobody buying lenses for a camera larger than about 4x5 (or possibly you could push this to 5x7) has any need for anywhere near the sharpness that Schneider is designing into their lenses.

    I am planning on discussing this with the Schneider reps at Photo Expo next week, and maybe it will light a spark of thought in their heads that may benefit the LF/ULF community.


    ---Michael

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Mutmansky
    What really gets me is the effort that Schnerider has put into the lenses must be considerable, and they made lenses that have a limited market of maybe 50 units worldwide.

    Now, if Schneider were smart, they would recognize that the era of ultra sharp ULF lenses is over, because nobody uses them for copywork anymore. If they would simply lighten up their standards a bit, they could produce lenses that would have the entire LF/ULF world clamoring for them.

    What I mean is, go back to the origins of the optics industry, and bring out some small, multicoated lenses in modern shutters that have very wide coverage specifications, something like the Hypergon or WA Dagor, which they still have the rights to I presume. Optical designs like the old Pantogon and the Boyer WA and even the old Angulon lenses could all be modified into exceptional ULF and pictorial (read: non-industry, non-copywork) lenses for cameras from about 5x7 on up. (Yes, I know the Pantogon is a Rodenstock design, but you get my point)

    These things would be small, light portable, and of quite simple optical design (with the exception of the Hypergon, I suppose), and could be sold at a price that would be reachable by the average LF/ULF shooter.

    They could just about corner the market if they reintroduced a line of Angulon or Dagor lenses that met all the needs of the contact printers out there, and the potential market would be at least 10,000x the potential for the XXL lenses.

    I'd love to see a modern 180-210mm lens that covers 8x10 with ample movement. Forget about the ship anchor 210 SS XL, give me a modern Angulon!

    Boy, I just can't believe they don't see the market potential for lenses like these. The reality is that almost nobody buying lenses for a camera larger than about 4x5 (or possibly you could push this to 5x7) has any need for anywhere near the sharpness that Schneider is designing into their lenses.

    I am planning on discussing this with the Schneider reps at Photo Expo next week, and maybe it will light a spark of thought in their heads that may benefit the LF/ULF community.


    ---Michael
    Well I hope you do light a fire under them, as good and as beautiful these new lenses are, I would not buy them even if I had won the lottery.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Mutmansky
    ....
    I'd love to see a modern 180-210mm lens that covers 8x10 with ample movement. Forget about the ship anchor 210 SS XL, give me a modern Angulon!

    Boy, I just can't believe they don't see the market potential for lenses like these. The reality is that almost nobody buying lenses for a camera larger than about 4x5 (or possibly you could push this to 5x7) has any need for anywhere near the sharpness that Schneider is designing into their lenses.

    I am planning on discussing this with the Schneider reps at Photo Expo next week, and maybe it will light a spark of thought in their heads that may benefit the LF/ULF community.


    ---Michael
    Way to go Michael! As you say, perhaps it is a company that has developed their manufacturing processes to such a state, they feel compelled to push ever more complex and refined products out there. Like you I'd be thrilled to find a new simple, compact lens with ample movements and reasonable optics ..... at an Affordable price!
    This is the way to grow the market for their products. Not by producing the Rolls Royces that will inhibit any considering entering the world of LF photography.
    Of course Schneider have a different reputation to uphold. Perhaps they are leaving market growth to the other lens manufacturers .... or do not feel it is necessary(?)

  5. #15
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    I believe that after WW2 all the patents of the German optical companies became public domain. So you could have anyone producing those pre war designs, and example is Nikon produced tesser lenses (200m, 300m 450m) Fuji C series 300, 450, 600 which I believe is an Goerz Artar derivative. While they couldn't use the name Daggor, I don't see why anyone couldn't use the lens design to produce a modern version.

    Thinking about it, the Cosina guy seems to like to resurrect old style equipment like M42 mount lenses, and LTM, maybe he would be interested in creating a modern Daggor large format lens?
    Scott Stadler

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge
    BTW, welcome to APUG Kerry, I hope you decide to stick around more, your experience is valuable to all of us.
    Jorge,

    Thanks for the kind words. I'll try to post when I think I can contribute, but my time is stretched real thin days. Too many irons in too many fires. I have visited the APUG forums in the past, but this thread is my first active participation.

    Kerry

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Mutmansky
    I'd love to see a modern 180-210mm lens that covers 8x10 with ample movement. Forget about the ship anchor 210 SS XL, give me a modern Angulon!

    ---Michael
    Michael,

    After Cooke introduced their new portrait lens, I had a very long email exchange with Barbara Lowry about the possibilities of a modern update of the Cooke Series VIIb - multicoated and in Copal shutters. I'd love to have a multicoated 158mm Series VIIc in a Copal NO. 1 shutter for my 4x10 camera.

    I do agree that there is a big void in the 180mm range for 8x10. It seems really odd to me given the popularity of the 90mm focal length on 4x5. And at 180mm, you don't need enormous angular coverage for most 8x10 applications. I would think 90 - 95 degree coverage (360 - 393mm image circle) would be usable for many landscape situations. By keeping the coverage reasonable and not going for 120 degrees, the size, weight and cost of the lens could be reasonable. This is where a modern update of some of the classic designs (wide field guass, for example) could really shine.

    Kerry

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by fingel
    I believe that after WW2 all the patents of the German optical companies became public domain.
    The Tessar, Protar, Celor (Artar), Dagor, Planar, etc. patents all expired long before WWII. These designs all date from the 1890s through early 1900s. Most had expired by the late 1910s or early 1920s.

    So, patents have not been an issue concerning these designs for over 80 years. The real issue isn't technical - these designs are pretty simple by today's standards (which is part of the appeal). The real issue concerns manufacturing cost, return on investment, potential market, etc.

    Kerry

  9. #19
    Ole
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    Quote Originally Posted by kthalmann
    The Tessar, Protar, Celor (Artar), Dagor, Planar, etc. patents all expired long before WWII. These designs all date from the 1890s through early 1900s. Most had expired by the late 1910s or early 1920s.
    ...
    Kerry
    I'm with you here. My 8x10" lens selection currently consists of a 240/420 Symmar and a 165 Angulon. Removing the front of the Angulon gives me about 300mm. Resolution is still good enough for contact prints, which is all I do in this size anyway.

    So what I would like is a 500/900 convertible Symmar or similar - NOT a 500mm super-duper lens which costs more than all my other camera gear combined...
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Mutmansky

    What I mean is, go back to the origins of the optics industry, and bring out some small, multicoated lenses in modern shutters that have very wide coverage specifications, something like the Hypergon or WA Dagor, which they still have the rights to I presume. Optical designs like the old Pantogon and the Boyer WA and even the old Angulon lenses could all be modified into exceptional ULF and pictorial (read: non-industry, non-copywork) lenses for cameras from about 5x7 on up. (Yes, I know the Pantogon is a Rodenstock design, but you get my point)

    These things would be small, light portable, and of quite simple optical design (with the exception of the Hypergon, I suppose), and could be sold at a price that would be reachable by the average LF/ULF shooter.

    They could just about corner the market if they reintroduced a line of Angulon or Dagor lenses that met all the needs of the contact printers out there, and the potential market would be at least 10,000x the potential for the XXL lenses.



    ---Michael
    Michael, given that the application of these lenses is 99.99 % contact printing you certainly have a point there. A maximum resolution in the vicinity of 10-15 lp/mm, but with high contrast, is all that is needed.

    I'd like to point out though that the 550mm actually IS a Wide Angle Dagor type, at least judging from the lens diagram shown in the specs, and the 1100mm is an Artar type. Both have been around for 100 years or more. So designwise (as a starting point) they did what you suggested.

    Arne

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