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  1. #21
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Kodak's 2010 Annual report shows 1.7B in sales for their Film, Photofinishing, and Entertainment Group (movie film etc) out of around 7 billion total for the corporation. They had earnings of 64 million dollars in the film group. These numbers have been declining. However, the main problem is that the corporation is operating at a substantial loss. If they could go through bankruptcies and throw off their losing crap and legacy costs, they could have a small but profitable film industry, probably growing smaller though as time goes on. Or, some one like a Ilford or Fuji could buy out that portion in bankruptcy. Maybe we should take up a collection and go into the film business ourselves. Anyway here's the link. Check pg 95 after you open the PDF document.
    http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...xUeXBlPTM=&t=1

  2. #22

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    I'll tell you what concerns me:

    I've been using film for more than fifty years. In all that time I've never had a quality control issue with any film. Last weekend was beautiful here in Olympia and I took the family to the park with my Rolleiflex loaded with Kodak Ektar. I shot the last shot on the roll and wound the film to the end and opened the camera. I was totally taken aback when there was no adhesive tab on the end of the roll! I wanted to shoot another roll so I had to find a way of securing it. Finally my wife found she had an elastic band in her jacket pocket and we used that.

    On a small specialized photography list I belong to we found three members who had recently experienced the same thing! Incredible! Have things gone so bad that Kodak no longer cares?

  3. #23
    ic-racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ektagraphic View Post
    Do you think that the decline in film photography has begun to level off and companies will not continue to see great decline?
    Perhaps. Just some other USA 'nostalgia' trends I have noticed:

    USA muscle cars, produced 1965-1975 with a boom in interest around 1995 to 2000, still continuing today. Gap = 30 years
    USA guitars, produced 1955-1965 with a boom in (player, not collector) interest starting around 1975. Gap = 10 years (disregarding the boom in COLLECTOR interest peaking around 2000-2005)

    So based on the above, given a golden age of 35mm SLR in 1970-1980 I'd predict a resurgence boom in 2000-2010. So did we already have the retro-boom? Will there be another wave?

  4. #24
    Aristophanes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    Kodak's 2010 Annual report shows 1.7B in sales for their Film, Photofinishing, and Entertainment Group (movie film etc) out of around 7 billion total for the corporation. They had earnings of 64 million dollars in the film group. These numbers have been declining. However, the main problem is that the corporation is operating at a substantial loss. If they could go through bankruptcies and throw off their losing crap and legacy costs, they could have a small but profitable film industry, probably growing smaller though as time goes on. Or, some one like a Ilford or Fuji could buy out that portion in bankruptcy. Maybe we should take up a collection and go into the film business ourselves. Anyway here's the link. Check pg 95 after you open the PDF document.
    http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...xUeXBlPTM=&t=1
    Net sales declining by $1.2 billion over those years. But look at the decline in total assets. The digital segments decline by less than half as much as the film and entertainment group, and there is a still a net loss.

    Losses from film and entertainment are contributing far more to the losses than the digital and graphics groups.

    Then pop up and look earnings and compare to the restructuring and rationalization costs. You think that maybe those restructuring costs are mostly related to film distribution and the decommissioned factories?

    What the earnings show is that the graphics side is small and volatile, digital is doing better (with 2008 being everyone's annus horribilus), and film is trending downward strongly.

    I'm not sure one can salvage a produce the is losing customers so fast with no end in sight. The Ch. 11 will be throwing the film side to the wolves. It's a huge cost centre with sales in decline holding back the possibility tat the company can grow again regardless.

    But in relation to the thread topic, the Kodak numbers demonstrate an accelerating loss of customers. The split between still and motion picture photograph is unknown, but I have 2 neighbours who cannot give their darkroom equipment away. From consumers to pros to do-it-yourself hobbyists the film market is shedding demand. It's on Craigslist and eBay and in this forum.

  5. #25

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    Please, we already have enough Kodak threads to play in, lets not make this another.

  6. #26

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    I'm generally pessimistic but I won't speculate.

    However, the current deep recession with most Western countries having unemployment rates nudging 10% and after all the statistical manipulations that governments do are taken into account probably nearer to 18%, cannot help matters. There may even be a small spike in sales as employment rates grow.
    Steve.

  7. #27
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    Fuji will be an issue within the next 24 months. Film culture is very strong in Japan, more than perhaps anywhere else on the planet. It's hard to say if Fuji can cost-shift film production costs from other areas out of a sense of loyalty and probably near-monopoly. Very tough to see because there is obviously a very deep commitment to film as it made Fuji as much as it made Kodak. Fuji is just better managed.
    Where's your source for this? As someone who lives in Japan I can say (anectodally) that digital is everywhere -- all the old film guys have switched over, and I have yet to see a young Japanese photographer shooting film. BUT...I live in a small city and still can get slide film processed within a couple of hours, and can buy a limited selection of slide, negative, and black and white film in 135 and 120 formats, so there must be some demand.

    I have no particular loyalty to any one manufacturer -- Kodak, Fuji, Ilford all make great films -- but a loss of one hurts all. Competition is good for business (not just film!) and good for customers. I came back to Japan in 2010 after a 5-year hiatus and was shocked at how many of the old camera and film shop disappeared in that time. And in the almost two years that I've been here, I've seen film stocks decline by almost half in most shops that I've visited in half a dozen cities across the country (especially Tokyo). Until recently it was better than anything I've seen in North America or Europe, but now I'm not so sure.
    Rachelle

    My favorite thing is to go where I've never been. D. Arbus

  8. #28

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    i don't know if it stopped or not, but i have a feeling, unless ilford or
    the other film(+paper+photochemical) makers push hard and start
    to distribute their films in american drug stores and department stores ...
    all the general public know is koduck, and when IT goes, they will
    ditch their film based cameras and go D-- ...

  9. #29
    keithwms's Avatar
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    Well, let's bear in mind that the digital market has stagnated too. After a flurry of upgrades/updates and new this and that, the past year has seen very little from the likes of Canon and Nikon. (and Olympus is in big trouble, for different reasons) In terms of actual capability, you could argue that it's been stagnant for a while. Various new models have been rumored for some time, but held back, probably because of low consumer demand and also the floods in Asia and the tsunami etc.

    Demand for these kinds of non-essential consumer goods has been an unprecedentedly low, across the board. This period hasn't been bad just for film, and there's no real reason for film to perform any better in a downturn. Yeah it's lower cost but processing is vanishing and has thus become more expensive...
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  10. #30
    Aristophanes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keithwms View Post
    Well, let's bear in mind that the digital market has stagnated too. After a flurry of upgrades/updates and new this and that, the past year has seen very little from the likes of Canon and Nikon. (and Olympus is in big trouble, for different reasons) In terms of actual capability, you could argue that it's been stagnant for a while. Various new models have been rumored for some time, but held back, probably because of low consumer demand and also the floods in Asia and the tsunami etc.

    Demand for these kinds of non-essential consumer goods has been an unprecedentedly low, across the board. This period hasn't been bad just for film, and there's no real reason for film to perform any better in a downturn. Yeah it's lower cost but processing is vanishing and has thus become more expensive...
    The digital market has nowhere near stagnated. Quite the opposite in fact. It's been one of the bright spots in manufacturing and export.

    There was a downturn in 2008-9 for everything, but CIPA shows increased sales across all categories but P&S because of smart phones.

    CIPA no longer tracks the sale of film products.

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