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  1. #71
    Aggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge
    Ah yeah....you are back...lets see how lont it takes to get you off the site this time.....
    All we have to do is say acutol is not the best developer, and kodak is not the great yellow god. that will have him fuming enough to explode.

    Instead of an arrogant quoting an arrent, I quote another philospher. "It is time to take a crap and a nap, in that order!" My mom.
    Non Digital Diva

  2. #72

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    Good evening people,

    I still do not know what you are referring to but whatever.

    "Instead of an arrogant quoting an arrent, I quote another philospher. "

    Arrogant? O.K., next time try the spell check button honey.

    '3 blind men with an elephant' a rather accurate description of the Zone System.

    In case you have not figured it out, and no one else has in 50 years, there is a fatal flaw to the Zone System since it's inception which actually renders it meaningless. Whether the omission was intentional, a lack of knowledge or a honest mistake I do not know, I have never met A.A.

    It's a simple fix that could mean a quantum leap for L.F. photography and printing AND it's hidden in plain sight. Have you found it yet???

    Smile

  3. #73
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phfitz
    In case you have not figured it out, and no one else has in 50 years, there is a fatal flaw to the Zone System since it's inception which actually renders it meaningless. Whether the omission was intentional, a lack of knowledge or a honest mistake I do not know, I have never met A.A.
    It's a simple fix that could mean a quantum leap for L.F. photography and printing AND it's hidden in plain sight. Have you found it yet???
    "You - and no one else in 50 years???" Yourself included?

    So, tell me, what is this "flaw" that renders the Zone System "meaningless"?

    A "Simple fix that could mean a quantum leap..." You set a high criteria for success. Sounds too good to be true .....

    BTW -- I would advise you to be careful who you call "honey". There is one person here - nameless -* who has had considerable experience harvesting "mountain oysters" ...

    *Aggie
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  4. #74
    bmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phfitz
    Good evening people....It's a simple fix that could mean a quantum leap for L.F. photography and printing AND it's hidden in plain sight. Have you found it yet???

    Smile
    Is it my ignore button?
    hi!

  5. #75
    Bob F.'s Avatar
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    Hang on a sec...now, where did I put that "Please do not feed the Trolls" notice... nope, can't find it... had it here a few days ago... Ah well, give a Troll enough rope...

  6. #76
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    Isn't it amazing how trolls act behind anonimity? They must be really impotent & insignificant in public life. Pity.

    Anyway, my vote goes to the ball head I have for the tripod. Anything heavier than a point and shoot is useless on this thing.

    Regards, Art.
    Visit my website at www.ArtLiem.com
    or my online portfolios at APUG and ModelMayhem

  7. #77
    Jeffrey A. Steinberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phfitz

    In case you have not figured it out, and no one else has in 50 years, there is a fatal flaw to the Zone System since it's inception which actually renders it meaningless. Whether the omission was intentional, a lack of knowledge or a honest mistake I do not know, I have never met A.A.

    It's a simple fix that could mean a quantum leap for L.F. photography and printing AND it's hidden in plain sight. Have you found it yet???

    Smile

    Yes it's rule 15.64-1 "If you don't employ the Zone System correctly, it will not work" (I follow this rool too often).
    --Jeffrey

    ______________________________________________
    Jeffrey Steinberg, K2MIT
    Scarsdale, NY

    www.jsteinbergphoto.com (my avocation)
    www.reversis.com (my vocation)

  8. #78

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    Worst

    Photobully-it's not my nature to want to attack/pick on people. I owned a wisner 5x7 camera for a short while and I was lucky to get rid of it. A long time ago the choices in 5x7 cameras were much more limited. This was true especially about ten or fifiteen years ago. The real shame about Wisner is that he has a really decent camera at a very competitive price. What about build quality? That is the ONLY thing that counts to me as a photographer. It doesn't help me to have 400mm of bellows if the camera doesn't work properly. My wista was bought from Zone-VI in the early eighties. I've replaced the bellows once and a small twist lever fell off on the back. Those are the two things that have broken and bellows do wear out. Somehow Ron has managed to stay afloat so he must be stisfying someone.
    Regards Peter

  9. #79

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    Good evening people,

    I guess I stepped on someone's one good nerve, oh well. I do have fat, dumb and ugly down to an art form but a 'troll'? This is nothing personal, just a statement of fact, take it as you will.

    Modern films, starting with Kodak's X series (Panatomic-X, Plus-X, Super-XX, Tri-X) were a quantum leap over what had come before. William Mortensen had tested and evaluated all of these films for his book 'On the Negative' published in 1940. Kodak published their H&D curves for these films showing that there is no shoulder on any of these films and they can easily exceed the density range of any reflection print paper made. It was plainly known by 1940 that there is NO SHOULDER on modern film emulsions, they were designed for Hollywood, for projection display, and needed a much longer tonal range and deeper density scale than any reflection print can handle.

    When did 'St. Ansel' espouse his Zone System on an unwitting public? Exactly what was it based on? There is NO SHOULDER to any modern film emulsion, the H&D curves run from the toe in a straight line to max. density.

    All of these home-brewed speed tests of step wedges and development times are utterly pointless and incomplete UNLESS you are actually trying to find the tungsten film speed for panchromatic film -OR- the actual **depletion point** for your developer solution. If you do find a shoulder on your H&D curve, it is only showing that you ran out of developer. ...2,3,4 yes, you have been doing it wrong all this time.

    Do Not believe me. Go to Kodak, Ilford, Fuji, Agfa, ect. and see if you can find a shoulder on their H&D curves. At Kodak.com you can find the tech specs for all of their films. Their H&D curves are done by men and women wearing white lab coats and PhD.'s, in controlled laboratory conditions, exposing the emulsions to full spectrum daylight and processed in LARGE tanks. The only shoulder I could find at Kodak was 'Plus-X, extended development in D-76, small tank', this shoulder does not show in development with 'T-Max' developer. I did find a shoulder at Ilford on FP4-Plus but they do not say if it was large or small tank. Large tanks : No shoulder, you think they're related?

    The density range of modern film so out-strips the range of papers that it is practically impossible to 'block-up' the highlights. By increasing the volume capacity of your development tanks/tubes/trays, NOT the dilution strength or temp., you will move this shoulder so far up the curve that it has no effect, if it still exists at all. You can then move all the values up and onto the straight line portion increasing the shadow separation without increasing contrast. There is a limiting point to this, but it is theoretical and requires personal testing.

    If this fits your vision of your print on your paper, by all means use it. It is only to show that there is no good reason to feel constrained by the artificial range imposed on your film by foolish economy with the chemistry. This is spending dollars to save pennies. Worse, it's a waste of your TIME.

    Smile.

  10. #80
    SchwinnParamount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konical
    Good Evening,

    The Yankee 4 x 5 developing tank is my candidate; it's not the quality of the construction but the awkwardness of use and the inconsistency of development.

    Konical
    Hear hear! I just used mine for the second (and last) time. agitation is virtually impossible without slopping the soup out the top. And I got uneven development to boot. Back to trays!

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