Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 69,735   Posts: 1,515,477   Online: 1087
      
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 20 of 20
  1. #11

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    1,416
    Triacetate films and polyester films are completely different animals when it comes to archival properties and problems with storage. The original questioner is asking about polyester, which is mainly used for sheet films, has nothing to do with vinegar syndrome. Roll films and 35mm films are usually triacetate film base, and these are a lot more sensitive to storage conditions. Inferior acetate bases are less than 3 acetates, more like 2.5 acetates, and those go faster.

    MANY early photographs are killed by poor handling and storage. It's just that the ones we see are the ones that survived. Many Dags are killed by the cleaning solution designed to remove the cloudiness (it's the solution of thiourea, invented in 1950s or 1960s) as well.

    Silver sulfide image is MANY times more durable than plain silver image in presence of environmental oxidants. I've run tests myself and ther eis the difference of night and day. When silver is faded to an unidentifiable degree, sulfided image is still clean and well identifiable.

    If you are really care about your work and archive, there is no room for casual talks here. Check with literatures and run necessary tests for your own.

  2. #12

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Floriduh
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    2,264
    Images
    2
    Do a search on google for microfilm. The first page should bring up various sites and companies that are into microfilm and archival storage. Clicking on a couple of the the various pages you should find a history in the menu's of the archival abilites of different mediums thru time, and the problems with each, and how long they are expected to last under different storage conditions. I'm sure I read something about polyester. Interestingly, microfilm is the medium of choice for preservation and all important records are kept on it.

  3. #13

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Binghamton, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    264
    There's always the mechanical issues of preservation as well. AA mentions the charmed existance of his first Half-Dome picture on glass, in that it had somehow avoided being sat on over the years.

    For what little it's worth, in 25 years the only images I've had go away fell into one of three well-defined categories: on cheap RC from the early '80s, escaped their envelope and heavily scratched, and deliberately thrown away. I'm not planning on living forever, so I only really worry that certain images will be around as long as I am.

  4. #14

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    371
    Images
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chinn
    We often hear the claims of archival longevity of digital images and data mediums. I am curious if there is any difinitive answer as to the longevity of a optimally processed and stored analog negative on modern polyester substrate. I would assume under proper storage it could be indefinetly. Any facts that support an actual length of time?
    Well, I just printed from a negative that was generated in 1950 and even though this negative has been mistreated it's whole life (handled without gloves, handled by kids as part of the heirloom, smudged with finger grease, etc) it cleaned up okay using 50/50 propane/butane (isopropanol) followed by a wash in Kodak Photoflow.

    Whether polyester would do as well is yet to be ddecided.

    Original Neg is 6x8 printed 6x6 on Ilford MGIV paper and looks pretty good.

    Graham.

  5. #15

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,512
    Images
    4
    I guess I never mentioned the reason for the question!


    A friends daughter has an addtion going up at her school and they are going to put in a time capsule to be opened in 100 years. They are including CDs and DVDs with all kinds of images and data as well as artifacts and regular photos etc. I have been trying to convince him that including that kind of digital media may well result in unretrievable images in 100 years but there will always be a way to either print negatives or scan them with what would be current technology in 2105.

    I argued that with even a minimum of common sense towards storage, a properly processed silver negative would last hundreds of years. I don't know about color negatives but know first hand how badly transparencies (Kodachrome) can fade in just 40 years although i suppose there exists strict storage protocols to help longevity of color emulsions.

    Anyway, thanks for the replies. I would be curious if anyone knows longevity of color emulsions?
    "Fundamentally I think we need to rediscover a non-ironic world"
    Robert Adams

  6. #16

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    1,416
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chinn
    I argued that with even a minimum of common sense towards storage, a properly processed silver negative would last hundreds of years. I don't know about color negatives but know first hand how badly transparencies (Kodachrome) can fade in just 40 years although i suppose there exists strict storage protocols to help longevity of color emulsions.
    In order to make that sentence a correct one, you have to substitute "properly processed" with "properly processed and stored." Proper processing alone is no assurance of good permanence.

    I would not put films and prints in a time capsule unless it is constructed with inert and impearmeable material like glass, and it is sealed. Even so, if you put roll films (35mm, 120, 220, etc.) they are most likely killed during storage unless you keep sending fresh air and removing old air. That is, roll films should not be stored in sealed space. Sheet films of polyester base are ok in sealed space.

    Color is more tricky, because of the stability of dye image. Some dyes require oxygen from air for them to be stable. Plus, long term storage for color material is usually at refrigeration temperature. (Incidentally, dyes used in post-1980 color films are significantly more stable than older ones, and they are sufficiently different from ones you had in your 40 years old Kodachrome.)

    You should hire an image archiving expert on this issue. It most likely involves selection of the right time capsule and selection of suitable films for that particualr condition. This is not an issue that you want to rely on amateur commentaries from strangers.

  7. #17
    Charles Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Colorfull, Canon City Colorado
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    1,723
    Much I don't know about this topic, but I can say that much or many of the original transparancy images I made for various magazine back in the fifties no longer survive. These were done with 4x5 Kodachrome, Ansco and the early Ektachromes. The Agfa films I used then were the first to go into an amber shift, then year by year the others followed suit. The were stored in a cool dark area with very little temp fluctuation and completely dry. All of the color work of other studio photographers I knew in the 1940's is now yellow amber. I have literally thousands of 35mm transparancioes that that are so faded it is difficult to identify them. So my thoughts are that Kodak when the made the statement on their color product " Colors may be fugitive" was a good one. My black and white negatives starting in 1945 seem to be as good today as they were when I removed them from the developer. My B&W prints going that far back have survived very well. All of my exposed and processed film was stored under the exact same conditions. I quit doing color weddings in the late 1960's because I could not guarantee them to be archival for a week, let alone 100 years. All of the commercial color work I have done since the mid 1970's has been strictly for catalog or other publications use in advertising and printing. I have done little or no color work that needed to be archival.

  8. #18
    htmlguru4242's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Sandy Hook, CT
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    973
    I have some prints from the late 1920s and 1930s that are still in perfect condition, aside from some yellowing of the paper. I also have a few hundred 120 negatives from the 30's, 40's and 50s that are a little brittle, but still have excellent image. However, the early color prints (50s and 60s) along with them, in addition to early Kodachrome movie films, have faded badly (to contrast with this, a B&W movie reel that I have from 1930 is still in playable shape ... the images very well could have been shot last year, they look so good).

  9. #19

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,512
    Images
    4
    I do have some first hand knowledge. I did print some images for someone from negatives he aquired at an estate sale a couple of years ago. They had been stored in a cigar box at the bottom of a chest of drawers for who knows how many years. The negatives date from between 1915-1920. They had some dimpling from being tightly stacked with some other papers but they still printed very well despite being slightly underexposed.
    "Fundamentally I think we need to rediscover a non-ironic world"
    Robert Adams

  10. #20

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    1,416
    Those are only anecdotal and nothing like systematic knowledge, which is needed if you want to consider all sorts of possible problems and manage the risk of losing the images.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin