How are different film formats made

Jim Chinn · 03-05-2003, 10:26 AM

Can anyone enlighten me on how the different film formats are manufactured?
For example, is all HP5 produced on the same machine and then cut to specific sizes on seperate runs, or is the same machine used with just different size film run through for each format?

I am curious because it seems to me if the same machines are used to produce and cut all of one emulsion, as long as one format is produced, they can all be produced although with higher costs for formats less in demand in the future.
If specific machines are required for each format, I can see where as film becomes less in demand, those machines become unprofitable to maintain and operate.

Donald Miller · 03-05-2003, 11:08 AM

Jim,
I can' t answer your questions as to the logistics of the manufacturing process and it may actually differ from one manufacturer to another. But if I understand the underlying question of future availability of a given film format, then at present I can relate that there are several suppliers of specialty film formats. The cost is often prohibative, however. For instance, I was seriously considering building a 10X16 format camera and the cost in lots of 5 boxes minimum was 180.00 per box of 25 sheets. I can purchase 12X20 film at a slightly lower cost. Hope this addresses your question and thoughts.

Robert Kennedy · 03-05-2003, 11:41 AM

The real question is how cheap are the machines to run?

Say Kodak decides tomorrow to stop making all film. They just stop. SOMEONE will buy up their plant or at least the machinery in it and take up production. They will be able to get the used equipment cheap. The real cost will be running the factory to make the film. If you can do it cheaply, you are set.

Now, the actual cost of a box of film is probably more related to what people will pay than to how much it costs to make. There is no reason 10x16 should be more expensive than 12x20. Rather the opposite. But if the market will bear a high price for the "rare" 10x16 then they will sell it at the high price.

I am pretty sure that sheet film is cut down from one large roll. It just seems odd not to do that when you can get a whole lot of different formats from one roll. With 35mm and 120/220, I think they each come off special machines. 35mm seems to have a thicker base to me (very unscientific statement here by the way) and all 3 formats have different numbers and codes on the base. So it would seem that they are coming from different sources.

c6h6o3 · 03-05-2003, 12:55 PM

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Robert Kennedy @ Mar 5 2003, 08:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Say Kodak decides tomorrow to stop making all film.  They just stop.  SOMEONE will buy up their plant or at least the machinery in it and take up production.  They will be able to get the used equipment cheap.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
If this is true then why is nobody making Super XX Pan?

glbeas · 03-05-2003, 01:14 PM

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (c6h6o3 @ Mar 5 2003, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Robert Kennedy @ Mar 5 2003, 08:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Say Kodak decides tomorrow to stop making all film.* They just stop.* SOMEONE will buy up their plant or at least the machinery in it and take up production.* They will be able to get the used equipment cheap.* </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
If this is true then why is nobody making Super XX Pan? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Nobody else has the formula and/or patents for it. They would have to reinvent it at a considerable cost.

David A. Goldfarb · 03-05-2003, 01:40 PM

The Forte plant used to be a Kodak plant, which Kodak got out of in the 1960s, I believe.

I've tried Fortepan 400, and it's nothing like Tri-X.

Aggie · 03-05-2003, 02:13 PM

Donald Miller · 03-05-2003, 02:45 PM

Aggie, Sounds as if you have a plan...how about the long green?

Robert · 03-05-2003, 02:55 PM

The way I understand it. 35mm is different from 120mm which is different from sheet film.

You don't need to fit sheet film in a 35mm can. So you can't make it exactly the same.

I thought somebody said getting Ilford to custom cut film wasn't too expensive. The problem was the massive order size. Likely no different then Kodak. You aren't really paying for the film but for setting up the machine. If you buy enough the cost of setup gets spread over enough sheets so it's not an issue. But if Kodak/Ilford/etc had to change the machine over a few boxes it doesn't make sense for anybody.

What might make sense is a buying co-op. It doesn't even need a lot of effort on our part. [Always a good thing-))] Does anybody have good contacts with any of the major retailers? All it takes is a retailer willing to take orders. When x boxes of a certain size of film are ordered then the order is sent out to have the film made.

Buying a plant sounds nice but some how I wonder if it would turn out to be a "I love Lucy" episode-) Instead of buying a whole plant buying part of it's production might be easier. Something like committing to buying so much film every year for so many years.

c6h6o3 · 03-05-2003, 03:25 PM

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (glbeas @ Mar 5 2003, 10:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (c6h6o3 @ Mar 5 2003, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Robert Kennedy @ Mar 5 2003, 08:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Say Kodak decides tomorrow to stop making all film.* They just stop.* SOMEONE will buy up their plant or at least the machinery in it and take up production.* They will be able to get the used equipment cheap.* </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
If this is true then why is nobody making Super XX Pan? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Nobody else has the formula and/or patents for it. They would have to reinvent it at a considerable cost.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
If Kodak's getting out of the business, why wouldn't they sell the patents and the formula along with the "used equipment cheap"? The very fact that they stop making something is proof that they're giving up their proprietary interest in it. So I ask again, if it's so easy to take over the manufacture of classic films, why isn't somebody producing them? JandC, Bergger and Forte don't count as they are not old style thick emulsion films. It was the physics of the emulsion which gave it such wonderful properties, not the chemistry. A micro thin coating of an old formula does not reproduce the old thick emulsion film. Super XX was so silver rich because it was so emulsion rich. I don't know about Efke yet. I haven't really tested it.

Kodak must have scrapped the equipment for making thick emulsion films (after all, Super XX had been the only one for quite a while) when they sold their remaining stock. In order to retool for that process would cost millions. Otherwise someone would be making it.

I personally feel I'm better off using a modern film whose chemistry has been adjusted to provide good expandability and control with modern, thin emulsion structure. I can certainly push HP5+ a lot farther than Bergger without hitting the dmax wall. Look at the density curves on Ilford's website. Good stuff.