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  1. #61
    ic-racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    The processing was not analog as it was too slow. I watched the live transmission of the crash landing on the moon and the last frame was sent real-time and was only 1/2 frame as the craft landed on the moon during transmission. The shot was taken from a few hundred feet up and sent immediately.

    NASA wanted to get images up to the last second.

    PE
    I don't follow. The immediate ('live') TV broadcast from the Ranger was analog. If anything, a 1960s era A/D converter would have slowed it to a crawl on each end.
    Last edited by ic-racer; 02-02-2009 at 04:53 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by ic-racer View Post
    ...Like the Ranger, the Orbiter's last close-ups of the moon were intended to be taken on the way in from a crash landing. I guess the photo-processing station needed to remain intact...still figuring that one out.
    I have a feeling that the Ranger probes had a much more vertical trajectory to the lunar surface than the Orbiters. That should also be the reason to use electronic (not digital I suppose) cameras, as there would be no time to do any processing, scanning and transmission (with such a low rate anyway). I *assume* that orbiters kept shooting, etc until the end. If it crashed, it crashed. The last photo of any Orbiter probe must have been from a quite high altitude.

    PS This youtube video might have some footage from the Rangers. Skip to about 3mins 20secs to see what I mean. It's a musical video by the way.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    ...I watched the live transmission of the crash landing on the moon and...
    You're such a lucky man! All that time spent at cape Canaveral must have been a... ehh, uhhh, ohh (lost for words)

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBrunner View Post
    I have a very expensive video camera that makes very good looking pictures that uses CCD's but is fully analog. It is completely possible for an imaging device to be fully electronic, but not be digital. Many people don't realize this. Hubble may be an example of that- the digitizing may take place on the ground. IDK for sure, but it would make sense to have the most unaltered information available, and the highest resolution of anything is always analog.
    Sony did in fact make an analog, but fully electronic still camera back in the early 1980s. It was called the Mavica, and pictures were recorded on a tape and viewed on a TV set. I'm not sure that anything could be printed out, though. Quality was probably not the best. And I am sure the thing was REALLY expensive back then. So it never really caught on. Sony actually used the Mavica name for quite some time. But all later Mavica models were digital. Only the original one was analog. In any case, this camera proves that analog does NOT inevitably mean film.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by ic-racer View Post
    I don't follow. The immediate ('live') TV broadcast from the Ranger was analog. If anything, a 1960s era A/D converter would have slowed it to a crawl on each end.
    They used digital imaging on those moon "crash landings" and transmitted live with only a 2" or thereabouts delay. If it were analog, they would have had process time and scan time.

    Basically, it was a slow motion digital motion picture capture device with direct transmission is the way I had it explained to me. And, it was fast.

    We saw the moon rush up at us and then the final frame froze at about 1/2 screen with one side moon rocks, a bit blurry and the other side static.

    PE

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by StorminMatt View Post
    Sony did in fact make an analog, but fully electronic still camera back in the early 1980s. It was called the Mavica, [...] In any case, this camera proves that analog does NOT inevitably mean film.
    Not when it is video (which is what the "vi" stands for), no.
    Video never meant film. A thing that doesn't need proving.


    Interesting though how we have turned full circle, from stopping videos to produce stills, to the still cameras of today that record videos.
    Round and round and round and round ...

  7. #67
    ic-racer's Avatar
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    From the ranger site: http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4210/page....htm#App_C_Top

    60W L-band TV transmitter
    Quasiomnidirectional low-gain antenna, parabolic high-gain antenna
    Engineering data: 1 binary and 7 analog, commutated at 25., 1.0, 0.1 and 0.01 sample/s
    TV data: 1 analog, commutated at 1 sample/s
    Last edited by ic-racer; 02-02-2009 at 05:53 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #68
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    I'm sorry then, my information was incorrrect. Thanks for the correction.

    The signal I saw appeared to be digital including pixellization and that is why the person who discussed this with us was convinced and told us it was digital. My error for not confirming it.

    As for the Mavica, I remember that the Mavica was B&W and Kodak showed a color version right after the first Mavica. The B&W Mavica was taken off the market. Now that I know. I've held the Kodak camera.

    PE

  9. #69
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    From what I could tell, the Mariner (designed around 1965) was one of the first satellites to process digital imagery. It used an analog TV camera to acquire the images. This data was then digitized for tape storage on the satellite, prior to transmission back to earth. The system used six bit encoding (thus giving only 63 shades of gray).

    That, in fact, may be one of the first photosystems ever to incorporate digital storage. Of interest here on APUG because it defines a point on the technology timeline where space exploration imagery ceased to be an entirely analog system.

    Also, as early as 1969 (perhaps earlier??) Ranger photographs WERE analyzed on earth via computer (presumably after digitization). (Thomas C. Rindficisch, "Getting More Out of Ranger Pictures by Computer," Astronautics and Aeronautics, January 1969)

    So, you may be correct PE, you may have seen digitally processed images.
    Last edited by ic-racer; 02-03-2009 at 09:49 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  10. #70
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    When ranger began their series of photos and crashed on the moon, it spelled the death of the Bimat project. Bimat was much better in resolution, but very very slow. I remember them shutting the Bimat project labs and meeting with our division. We then got their lab space and they moved to another building and then just kind of vanished.

    Grant was trying to speed it up by devising a heat processed single sheet film, but the problem was not the processing, it was the time to process then scan as well as the power to heat the equipment. Essentially, the argument went that the video could be transmitted directly. And that is where the argument came in that the signal was digital. Since we were working on digital capture, that was the assumption, but it must have been an analog signal.

    Right after that, about the time of the Mavica, Kodak made their first digital color chip and camera. At the same time, they produced a color print material called "Electrocolor" which was based on a 3 color scan and dye transfer to a Titanox matrix on a paper support.

    PE

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