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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by edz
    Yea. Silly looking site. All I see is some jigsaw piece telling me to "Click here to download plugin". Hmmmmm...
    With all of the flash sites out there, why don't you download the plug in? It's free and reliable. You're missing access to many good sites. Have you also decided against loading quicktime on your computer? Maybe save time and disk space and forego installing an operating system as well.

  2. #22
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Early Riser
    With all of the flash sites out there, why don't you download the plug in? It's free and reliable. You're missing access to many good sites. Have you also decided against loading quicktime on your computer? Maybe save time and disk space and forego installing an operating system as well.
    I know this isn't about Early Riser's site, but...

    There is nothing about this site that can't be done using javascript and standard HTML. You should choose the technology to fit the goal not the other way around. There are some out there who disable javascript (not many and far fewer than those who don't load plug ins), but it is far easier to to create an no-javascript site from a javascript enabled site, than it is from a flash site.

    Some issues with flash from my perspective:

    Flash does not scale with monitor resolution -- so on a high res monitor text that is intended to be read at 800x600 is barely readable. Links often become games, but no more usable. In fact many flash sites are harder to navigate. You cannot bookmark a 'page' within the flash document. This causes the user to remember and hit the same 6 or 7 links to get to the item of interest.

    There are search engine optimization techniques that can be applied to a flash site but it is infinitely easer to optimize a text based site.

    If your site goal (business goal) is best achieved by using flash, then use flash.

    Here is one of my favourite photo sites. Mostly because it is 'out of the box' and slick, which is one of the main reasons I think most choose flash. and also because he is a friend (and uses film).

    joshua kristal

    It has some issues: too many windows, links that are some times hard to locate and not entirely consistent, and its a little large, but it is straight HTML and...

    *

  3. #23
    Flotsam's Avatar
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    My personal site can be justifiably criticised for being over flashed but that is because I was doing more Flash than photography at the time and was interested in exploring programming and and graphical solutions to various presentation problems. If it were a commercial site I would have been much more conservative and I wouldn't have had nearly as much fun working on it. It is made entirely from scratch and I got a lot of satisfaction from the accomplishment. I warn people who don't have broad band before they go in (I used to also give the option of simply downloading the site for off-line viewing as well) and have a "skip ahead" button for anyone that wants to skip the audio and graphics and head straight for the photography. It's their choice and I don't apologise.

    Flash can be used to create a subtly interactive or a completely annoying site. It is up to the designer, not the program. Front Page extensions and Java in the wrong hands can, and often is, used to create sites even more cheesy and obnoxious than anything that Flash can do and some people will sniff and groan at anything that isn't all monochrome text. Just apply the creativity and good taste that you use to make your photographs to the look and style of you web site and you have nothing to fear from Flash.
    If you are worried about your site being found, register it with the search engines and use meta tags and heading information in the HTML code that calls your Flash file.

    Oh yeah. Check this out if you have broadband. Something that I came up with while fooling around with Flash. No photography but it might be an amusing time killer for some. Make sure that you have your speakers on: http://www.nw-vdr.com/ndp .
    That is called grain. It is supposed to be there.
    =Neal W.=

  4. #24
    edz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Early Riser
    With all of the flash sites out there, why don't you download the plug in? It's free and reliable. You're missing access to many good sites.
    I think you got up too early. Or can't read?
    And how am I supposed, if I so wanted, to download the flash plugin for my machine? There are NONE available. The point of the "web" was platform independence--- in fact we back in the early 1990s wanted polymorphic media objects (the smart server would deliver what the client stated it could accept).

    Have you also decided against loading quicktime on your computer?
    Apple Quicktime too is a proprietary piece of software not available on all platforms and for all hardware.
    Why don't you learn Mandarin Chinese? With 885 million speakers (not including some of the other Sino-Tibetan languages where communication via signs are possible) its by far the most spoken language in the world. Even Spanish is more common than English. Or accept Islam (if you have not already), the official state religion of nearly 50 countries with over 1.3 billion "believers"--- one considers Chistians to number 2 billion but that number includes all "Christian"-like faiths including not just Catholics, Protestants (all the groups), Eastern Orthodox but also Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses and even the Unification Church (Sung Yung Moon) which still numbers larger than .Jainism, Shinto or Cao Dai (to just name a few world religions).

    The issue should not be what you like but what everyone has or could, should the opportunity costs be appropriate. My favorite "word processor" is Frame+SGML. Within my compary we exchange Frame documents but is it suitable to publish for anonymous to read as the media for publication? Of course not. Its a comparatively expensive piece of software and tend to demand something like a Sun Workstation--- of which I own many dozens.

    The point of HTML--- which was designed as a very very poor man's SGML, with the brower being a toy Dynatext (which CERN liked but was very expensive and why they let Tim play with the NeXT)--- and the Web was to create a minimal common ground for exchange between the HEP community. It followed in the footsteps of CALS and other U.S. government initiatives, executive orders and government regulations to de-couple information from the hardware upon which they reside. As Charles Goldfarb repeatedly stated: Information must be able to survive the hardware and software upon which it is stored. It was about protecting authors and intellectual property--- a very relevant issue btw. for all digital media including increasingly popular consumer image capture ("Digicams").

    Maybe save time and disk space and forego installing an operating system as well.
    Don't see the relevance. One is trying to launch a "web site" for the intent of marketing. Selling a story. They want people to visit their site. If their site limits their audience to those using some specific proprietary piece of software then they are limiting their audience. Can one assume that the audience all use Windows or a Mac and all have the specific piece of software installed? Is it worth it?
    And what do we often see?
    Sites with a piece of meaningless flash lead-in to a very ordinary site. But without flash? The customers never get in.
    Edward C. Zimmermann
    BSn R&D // http://www.nonmonotonic.net

  5. #25

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    Edz, if you have chosen to use technology that it not compatible with the vast majority of web software/technology out there ( Wintel, Mac, Linux) maybe you shouldn't complain about your inability to download and use widely available drivers or access a large proportion of web sites. As for my comments about Quicktime, and not using an OS, I was being sarcastic. It's laughable that someone would take that seriously enough to truly reply to it, let alone give a dissertation on religion.

    BTW there are photographers posting on this forum, Im just one of many. So when you say,"There are hardly any photographers here." you're wrong.

  6. #26
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    I have to agree with Mr. Zimmermann.
    The WWW was designed to be viewed by everybody in the phisilophy that if you had a certain technology it could be utilised, if not you should not kept away from the information. I remember in the old days that I could use my Amiga, a Unix workstation at the university or a dumb or VT100 (text-only) terminal and still be able to access the internet. Now with small portable communication devices (like cell phones and palm pilots) the internet has seen a new different access point than the desktop PC.
    The philosophy was taken a serious threat when companies started circulating proprietary code and forcing you to use their software to access even a simple page.
    Now that internet related code has expanded to include new technologies and all kinds of ways to create a web site I find it pretty sad to go back to the "use my software or else" attitude.
    I don't want people, especially companies to force me to use their stuff "just because". I like having the freedom to choose and freedom is what the Internet is all about.

    Think about it in a different way:
    One accesses your home page from another's computer like in an office, kiosk, internet cafe or family member. That computer does not have any extra code installed, just a browser. The person cannot download java or flash or anything.
    Why prevent the person from viewing your website, just because it displays just fine in your souped-up desktop PC?
    The WWW should be able to be viewed by any browser, that's what's there for.
    aristotelis grammatikakis
    www.arigram.gr
    Real photographs, created in camera, 100% organic,
    no digital additives and shit




  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by arigram
    Think about it in a different way:
    One accesses your home page from another's computer like in an office, kiosk, internet cafe or family member. That computer does not have any extra code installed, just a browser. The person cannot download java or flash or anything.
    Why prevent the person from viewing your website, just because it displays just fine in your souped-up desktop PC?
    The WWW should be able to be viewed by any browser, that's what's there for.
    I have to agree, with Edz and Arigram here, my wife does all of our websites for our customers and they are very successful and the companies she does them for Make money!

    When designing a website, you have to really define 'Why?' am I doing this website, if the reason is for profit and selling, then the path of least resistance should be the major goal, make your product available to the maximum amount of viewers with the least amount of trouble, the majority of my surfing on the net is on an older OS with an older Laptop, with a smaller hardrive and low memory, I have no desire to install major new componants or software to do what I need to do on the internet, I feel, that if you are asking your customer to install software or upgrade OS, then the price of your product has just increased in the time it takes, or the software/hardware, that may have to be purchased, hence your pricing becomes less competitive based on the extra time taking out of that consumers time.

    In other words asking me as your customer to install something, or upgrade something to see what your offering, just takes you out of the choices I have when making the buying choice.

    Dave Parker
    Satin Snow Ground Glass

  8. #28
    edz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Early Riser
    Edz, if you have chosen to use technology that it not compatible with the vast majority of web software/technology out there ( Wintel, Mac, Linux)
    They don't run on Linux either? You mean a 32-bit Linux running on an Intel Pentium chipset. MS-Windows? Mac? Is that the world. What one that line from the "Producers".:
    "Don't be stupid; be a smarty
    Come and join the Nazi Party."
    The argument is that my technology is "not compatible" with technologies that some have elected to use that are not compatible with IETF/W3C Standards.
    I use the technology I have because it works well. With racks and racks of servers, many 100s of domains and some relatively high traffic government, corporate and educational sites (including one that gets all the traffic from many Neo-Nazi domains that the German government siezed) we don't have the manpower to play around with toys built using half-baked and vulnerable systems from Redmond--- which they too don't tend to use.

    maybe you shouldn't complain about your inability to download and use widely available drivers or access a large proportion of web sites.
    Web sites want people to visit them. I don't need to read their ad-copy. Its those that have been ill-advised to use Flash or other proprietary technologies in their ill-designed webs that must complain . They just don't know any better. Its unfortunately quite expensive for companies to correct their "past mistakes" and more often than not go from one impostor to the next. Many so-called "new media agencies" like to push Flash since they can't do much else--- lacking experience and programming abilities and skills.


    BTW there are photographers posting on this forum, Im just one of many. So when you say,"There are hardly any photographers here." you're wrong.
    Its a question of "what's a photographer". If you mean someone who owns a camera then we're all photographers. If you mean someone who earns their living by making and selling photographs--- in Germany, for that matter, with a masters certificate from the guild--- then I suspect that there are fewer than few here.
    Edward C. Zimmermann
    BSn R&D // http://www.nonmonotonic.net

  9. #29
    Flotsam's Avatar
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    To Flash or not to Flash is a personal decision both for the developer and the viewer. I have done projects where businesses have needed to transfer information in various media forms and interactively collect and exchange information over the internet. Flash fulfills certain needs uniquely well.

    If you only wish to accept ascii text from your modem, that's fine. If you you only want to see basic HTML, that's good too. It's your choice. If you have, or want, information that can only be related through a program like Flash, then what the h3ll, use Flash.
    ------
    Oh oh, My lights are dimming in this storm so I'd better hit the submit button. I have a feeling that I'll only be accepting content that can be transferred by semaphore for the next several hours.
    'Night friends
    That is called grain. It is supposed to be there.
    =Neal W.=

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by edz
    Web sites want people to visit them. I don't need to read their ad-copy. Its those that have been ill-advised to use Flash or other proprietary technologies in their ill-designed webs that must complain . They just don't know any better. Its unfortunately quite expensive for companies to correct their "past mistakes" and more often than not go from one impostor to the next. Many so-called "new media agencies" like to push Flash since they can't do much else--- lacking experience and programming abilities and skills.
    The web designers that I know and have worked with are familiar with ALL of the available web site design softwares, not just Flash. Flash is one of the harder softwares to use. Designers don't use it because it's easier and they lack the skills to do any better. Granted there are bad designers out there, I just would never use one.

    I have had no complaints about my website using flash prior to the one posted by Edz. Even when my web site has been reviewed in magazines, there was never a complaint about flash. I get a few thousand visitors a month.and no problems. Everyone is free to use whatever they want for their web sites. The vast majority of people on the net use Wintel, Mac or linux. If the small minority who use more esoteric systems can't access my site, well, I'll just have to live without their audience. Then again my work is available on other web sites and some of those are not Flash, so i guess I'm covered anyway.

    As for the democracy of the internet, and it being accessible to all, the fact is that it is not available to all, it is only available to those who own a computer, a browser and have a phone line and modem or broad band. The fact is that the internet is already segregating a large portion of the worlds population. My use of Flash contributes little to this.


    Quote Originally Posted by edz
    Its a question of "what's a photographer". If you mean someone who owns a camera then we're all photographers. If you mean someone who earns their living by making and selling photographs--- in Germany, for that matter, with a masters certificate from the guild--- then I suspect that there are fewer than few here.
    I have made my sole living with a camera for 30 years. However I can not use that criteria for everyone. Personally I consider the term photographer to be a professional title, however i am realistic enough to know that the term is commonly used to include serious hobbyists and amateurs. In this forum there are more than a few professional photographers.

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