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  1. #31
    edz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Early Riser
    The web designers that I know and have worked with are familiar with ALL of the available web site design softwares,
    Gosh, golly. Real Tzadiks. ALL available software. I'm truly impressed. Chapeau!

    not just Flash. Flash is one of the harder softwares to use.
    They also say that blondes can't drive and chew gum at the same time.

    Designers don't use it because it's easier and they lack the skills to do any better.
    I suspect you are confusing "development" with so-called design.

    This really reminds me of an interview for a secretary back in the late 1980s. She was asked what word processing software she tended to use and she answered "I have a master knowledge of all the word processors". We had a good laugh and needless to say she did not get the job.

    The claim even to know of all software--- we are not even talking about using or even mastering--- in these kinds of horizonal applications is a sure giveaway to a very limited knowledge. One might know what one knows but its hardly what there is to know.

    The pictorial photographic film, paper and chemicals market is, by contrast, very limited (we can indeed draw up a list of most all vendors available to our markets, excluding OEM). Can you imagine someone claiming to have used all films, papers and commercial chemistries? In a well stocked German photo shop there are probably at least 25 different 120 B&W rollfilms to be had and that's hardly "ALL".

    At the top of my head I can think of well beyond 100 commercial, heavily marketed, mainline content management systems for "generic" web site development with international sales and support and some major key corporate references. I can think of no less (at the top of my head) 20 web-out-of-the-box packages and and and.. And I don't even care to know what's available. There are multimedia, animation, graphics etc. etc. packages. Its a very large market.

    I don't even know-of a fraction of all the packages on the market, but to have worked with them ALL. Wow. truly amazing.

    Even taking some of the currently most popular systems: to have even installed them is a significant task.

    Granted there are bad designers out there, I just would never use one.
    Design is just one component of web development. Being a competent designer does not mean one is a good developer. Few if any are. Its a really different skill mix. Its the difference between being an interior designer, cabinet maker, architect, civil or structural engineer. And that's a bit of the source of the problem. Each have their roles but in today's web services we see "interior designers" selling themselves as full service construction companies. 5 years after the collapse of the big balloon the market is still overrun and customers still can't tell the difference, until often, at the earliest, after the fact. Blind leading blind.

    How do YOU know what's good and what's "bad"?

    I have had no complaints about my website using flash prior to the one posted by Edz.
    I did not complain about your site I just commented that I could not see anything--- and only because in this thread someone asked for advice about flash. Not motivated to look at your site I would not be motivated enough to complain. Might be a nice site but its all in "Chinese" and despite its widespread popularity I can't read Chinese.

    Even when my web site has been reviewed in magazines, there was never a complaint about flash. I get a few thousand visitors a month.and no problems.
    Web traffic tends to not be connected with design but with content. I have many pages that have no design and have been unchanged since the 1990s that continue to get 1000s of hits a day. Attractive packaging is nice but its what's in the box that gets people to return.
    Edward C. Zimmermann
    BSn R&D // http://www.nonmonotonic.net

  2. #32
    arigram's Avatar
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    Another matter to consider is bandwidth and speeds.
    For example here in Greece the vast majority has no internet access at home. Those who do have mostly 56K modems. The few have ISDN lines. It is rare to find one with an ADSL 384k line. Internet here is very expensive and very problematic due to the monopoly of the public phone company.
    Imagine how difficult is for someone to peruse around a photographer's site filled with thumbnails of their photos with such a slow internet access. Now imagine if you request to download a whole front end before they take a peek at your photos.

    I don't know about you but I am having a web site made and I would like all to be able to see my photos, especially those who are computer illiterate, have slow internet connections, can't install extra software due to constraints and are situated half the world away which makes it even slower.
    I also want to be able to access my own web site from any computer in case I am travelling for example.
    Plus it would be easier to maintain, upgrade or revamp it.
    Sure, flash is flashy, but I don't even use flash when taking photos...

    But then its just me.
    You could have well allready pinned down your audience which lives in your country, has high speed broadband connection, has the hardware/software combo you use, is computer literate enough to install plugins and has the patience to go through your front end to reach your photos.
    Nothing wrong with carving out a small portion of an audience.
    That's focused advertising.
    aristotelis grammatikakis
    www.arigram.gr
    Real photographs, created in camera, 100% organic,
    no digital additives and shit




  3. #33

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    Ed you have no knowledge of me or my background, or those of the people I have worked with, yet you seem to have no problem making blind assumptions about me.

    As for your web site, for all your talk about web design and development, accessibility etc, your web site reflects none of them. I have tried to access your site only to come to a site that consists of only one page that I can access, with not much more than the name of your company, a search feature that does not work, no graphics at all, zero, at least not any that will load or appear, just a few lines of type, and a complete and total lack of any design aesthetics. Who knows maybe your web site isn't compatible with my Windows/ intel computer. From your web site I can not determine what you do, sell or produce.

    As our web sites are the most obvious, and fleshed out examples of our web design philosophies, people are free to compare my web site and yours and then decide the merits of our arguments. After all talk is easy, actually producing something that succeeds can be far more difficult.

    As for me, this discussion holds little value and I have said my piece, I wish you well.

  4. #34
    Dave Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Early Riser
    Ed you have no knowledge of me or my background, or those of the people I have worked with, yet you seem to have no problem making blind assumptions about me.

    I would have to say, this statement probably pertains to both sides of this aurgument!

    Dave

    PS. when this all started, Eric did kind of post in a manner, that would suggest in a round about way, he was soliciting feedback.

  5. #35
    edz
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    Quote Originally Posted by arigram
    Another matter to consider is bandwidth and speeds.
    For example here in Greece the vast majority has no internet access at home. Those who do have mostly 56K modems..
    Even educational institutions there don't have terribly high bandwidth by Western European or Scandanavian standards. I'm mainly connected up with the other side of the island but even MaiCh (Chania) has only 512K leased line for the whole campus. Hosting and bankwidth charges are naturally very high--- and so we've interestingly come to host some Cretan companies here in Germany (it seems we charge for a year what Forthnet are said to charge for a month).

    Crete is, in the "big picture", well connected. Heraklion and Chania are relatively international with a long historical tradition of trade. By mediterranean/middle-east/maghreb standards the quality of Internet is a dream--- and I won't even touch upon information politics and control in some of these other countries. 512K for an institute, however, does not lend itself well to multiple MB transfers just to read the first page..

    On the other hand.. even in the US.. it seems most people are still by German, Dutch or Scandanavian standards poorly connected.
    Edward C. Zimmermann
    BSn R&D // http://www.nonmonotonic.net

  6. #36
    edz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Early Riser
    Ed you have no knowledge of me or my background, or those of the people I have worked with, yet you seem to have no problem making blind assumptions about me.
    I've made no assumption about you.

    As for your web site, for all your talk about web design and development, accessibility etc, your web site reflects none of them. I have tried to access your site only to come to a site that consists of only one page that I can access, with not much more than the name of your company, a search feature that does not work, no graphics at all, zero, at least not any that will load or appear, just a few lines of type, and a complete and total lack of any design aesthetics. Who knows maybe your web site isn't compatible with my Windows/ intel computer. From your web site I can not determine what you do, sell or produce.
    Don't know why you had any problems but our own Web/Webs are part of an intentional joke going against current aesthetics. In one of our webs I sometimes get mails from people **demanding** that I update a page since they are 10 years old. My standard remark is "The page has been good for 10 years so what's the problem about leaving it there for another 10".


    You may not like the NONMONOTONIC.NET Web but I don't see why the search did not work for you.


    From your web site I can not determine what you do, sell or produce.
    You're not alone. Hardly any of our customers (including those we have worked with for over a decade don't really know all what we do, sell or produce). To be honest we're too not quite sure what we "sell". My company is a kind of playground exporing different ideas. On the way we've done a lot of projects for governments across the planet, been active in promoting information cooperation, building shops (spanning the spectrum from art galleries to an office shop with many 100s of 1000s of items) and corporate intranets and redefining organisational structures... developed some core technologies (like our search engine which has found its way into all kinds of applications from government information, multimedia to genetic sequence management) and sponsoring all kinds of art, political and ... In a few words "we do what we do"... and we have fun... Ride bicycles to business meetings--- to meet managers landing by heilicoper. And we have fun.. And are very good at what we do.

    I don't know a single company on the planet even 10 times our size that has even 1/10 the list of references we have. As I said.. we are very good at what we do.

    As our web sites are the most obvious, and fleshed out examples of our web design philosophies,
    Maybe yours but never ours. We don't have the time or desire to spend too much time with our own webs. A lot of what we do is about large scales of information. Others have the information.

    people are free to compare my web site and yours and then decide the merits of our arguments. After all talk is easy, actually producing something that succeeds can be far more difficult.
    Our own webs have little to do with the webs that we deliver our customers, for example (as an extreme from nonmonotonic) http://www.fujitsu.de/ or
    http://photo.fujitsu.de (or for that matter any of the Fujitsu intranet things we have all done).

    To be honest, we we tend to not even care for design.. and put our stuff behind the scenes--- its function and content and not aesthetics. Most of our corporate accounts have style guides that restrict the kinds of variations possible or they have a set of aesthetics one needs to meet. Some years ago I used to write articles for fun in a bunch of German magazines and newpapers--- it was my phase of "instead of yelling at Hyde Park get paid to have it published". If the article was intended for Focus, Handlesblat, FAZ or any of a number of computer and culture magazines it took the style of the readership, as a cameleon, into its own internalised style. The message was "my message" but the packaging and language was always tuned to our sense of the tastes of the editors--- whose job, in turn, was to assure that things meet the tastes of their readers.

    In our own webs we don't want to meet anyone's tastes but make it quickly clear that if your looking for talking heads in gray suits.. keep looking..

    And speaking of Flash.. We've actually made a bit of money being contracted by some of the leading ad agencies in Germany... to have us remove the flash and covert things over to HTML.. So I guess Flash has sometimes been good for something..
    Edward C. Zimmermann
    BSn R&D // http://www.nonmonotonic.net

  7. #37
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    I see Edward you are very well informed of what goes around here. You actually surprised me as I did not know that the university in Chania has such a small bandwidth. I would have imagined T3 or atleast T1.
    Crete was the first place to connect to the Internet in Greece because of the University of Crete that resides in Iraklion and specialises in information technology and general technological innovations.
    I remember way before anyone in Greece could connect to the internet at home, I had access because my uncle was the dean of the university and let me use his account.
    Back then of course you had to learn unix to do anything and the web hardly existed. Gopher, ftp, telnet and usegroups was all I used.

    Even now we only have a 384k ADSL line at the newspaper and I rarely see speeds faster than 15ks. Very often the line crawls at single digits and some times even decimals...

    I have instinctively learned to ignore slow sites unless they really have something I crave. When I see flash I always select html if there is an option. If there is not, I don't go in.

    I have little bandwidth and time to waste for people's flashing circuses.
    aristotelis grammatikakis
    www.arigram.gr
    Real photographs, created in camera, 100% organic,
    no digital additives and shit




  8. #38
    Bob F.'s Avatar
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    NONMONOTONIC.NET works fine for me: typed in "why" - got 6 results; typed in "why not" got 16... About the right ratio I would have thought... Where's the problem???


    Cheers, Bob.

  9. #39
    edz
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    Search [OFFTOPIC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob F.
    NONMONOTONIC.NET works fine for me: typed in "why" - got 6 results; typed in "why not" got 16... About the right ratio I would have thought... Where's the problem???
    If you want to see the engine do someone "more usefull" from the prespective of this site then:
    http://nonmonotonic.net/pure-silver (its an archive of the old pure-silver list)
    Edward C. Zimmermann
    BSn R&D // http://www.nonmonotonic.net

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