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  1. #11
    Sparky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    This has to be the most arrogant thing I have ever read.
    Why is it arrogant to want something 'special' that suits an individual photo better? Just curious. Does that mean that it is also arrogant to want to make pictures that are different from others' or from the sunset pictures in John Hedgecoe 'how-to' books?

  2. #12

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    A-the print does not belong to him when he sells it.
    B-The person who bought the print KNOWS how they want to display it
    C-He assumes he KNOWS better than they, how they should present THEIR print.

    It is the print that means something not the frame job.

    Smacks of extreme arrogance to me. We were not talking about the content of the photograph. The image should carry it not the frame job. If someone notices the frame then the image has failed. It should have the same impact in a walmart frame as it does in a "professional" frame job. Of course this is how I feel, and you may think the frame is an integral part of the overall impact of the image.
    Technological society has succeeded in multiplying the opportunities for pleasure, but it has great difficulty in generating joy. Pope Paul VI

    So, I think the "greats" were true to their visions, once their visions no longer sucked. Ralph Barker 12/2004

  3. #13
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    I can understand both the pros and cons of "enforcing" a custom mat.

    Essentially, it has the same logic behind it as those who retain ownership of wedding negatives - that way you can ensure that the prints are properly prepared.

    I would note, however, that:

    1) some of the Walmart frames aren't bad at all; and
    2) if the mat is sufficiently large (as compared to the print), the frame, no matter how tacky, isn't likely to be able to overwhelm the quality of the print.

    With respect to the first observation, I would suggest recommending a number of frames, all of which are sufficiently neutral as to emphasize the print.

    Some people will insist in putting the print, and mat, into an inappropriate frame, but most of those who appreciate the print, will make an appropriate choice. The few exceptions, will probably be showing the prints mostly to others with similar tastes, so no harm will be done there .

    By the way, one niggling complaint.

    I think you mean to say customer "mat" size.

    Not "matt" size.

    Matt

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    A-the print does not belong to him when he sells it.
    B-The person who bought the print KNOWS how they want to display it
    C-He assumes he KNOWS better than they, how they should present THEIR print.

    It is the print that means something not the frame job.

    Smacks of extreme arrogance to me. We were not talking about the content of the photograph. The image should carry it not the frame job. If someone notices the frame then the image has failed. It should have the same impact in a walmart frame as it does in a "professional" frame job. Of course this is how I feel, and you may think the frame is an integral part of the overall impact of the image.

    I agree completely.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  5. #15

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    It comes down to good communication between you and the buyer. Let them decide wether they will go for your preference size which constitutes extra cost vs. savings with a standard mat and frame. If you are honest with them, they will be honest with you regarding what they are wanting to spend. The most important customer is the repeat customer, and it doesn't help if you stick them with an expensive product when they would have appreciated more of same enjoyment for less money.

    Just being honest, you can tell within the first 30 seconds of the conversation which direction they are comfortable with.

    When questions like this arise, I tell sellers to "walk in their customer's shoes" and then decide.

    Cheers,
    Shane Knight
    www.shaneknight.com

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by t_nunn
    Sounds like a reasonable compromise. Just out of curiosity, what size matt borders are you going to have, is the print going to be centered?
    I went with the print centred, 2.5 inch border right around. IU was going to go with a size where I could weight the bootom more heavily, but liked to result I got. Each to their own I guess.

    Matt, I mean 'mat'

  7. #17
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    If someone notices the frame then the image has failed.

    Quotation: Humphrey Davy, English Chemist 1778 - 1829

    "The art galleries of Paris contain the finest collection of frames I ever saw"


    Steve.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    ... If someone notices the frame then the image has failed.
    Depends who the "noticer" is. Fresh from a session of cutting your own mats and framing. the matting and framing - and the effect it has on the presentation - may well be the focus of attention.

    Generally, though, I agree. All that WILL have an effect on the presentation, and very possibly, if there is an intrusion into the conscious perception, it will be an indicator of an adverse effect.

    Ideally, the image will overpower ALL else, including the walls, the rest of the gallery ... the atmosphere ... then, it WORKS!!!
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    A-the print does not belong to him when he sells it.
    B-The person who bought the print KNOWS how they want to display it
    C-He assumes he KNOWS better than they, how they should present THEIR print.

    It is the print that means something not the frame job.

    Smacks of extreme arrogance to me. We were not talking about the content of the photograph. The image should carry it not the frame job. If someone notices the frame then the image has failed. It should have the same impact in a walmart frame as it does in a "professional" frame job. Of course this is how I feel, and you may think the frame is an integral part of the overall impact of the image.




    Mark,

    Calling me arrogant was completely not needed and rude.

    I've have been selling fine art prints for over 5 years now, selling several hundreds of prints over this period of time, and never ONCE have I had someone complain about mat size.

    In regards to your comments, of course the image should stand on its own, however the matting and framing should compliment that image as well as make it look good in the environment in which it's displayed.

    One's framing choices at Walmart or a local art store are usually very limited, and people often spend a long time searching for frames to not only match the artwork, but also to match their house!

    By having your artwork custom framed, the customer has thousands of framing possibilities and can choice a frame to compliment the artwork, along with something that would work well in their house (or gallery, ect). If the buyer is unsure of how to properly frame something, the professional framer will be better at selecting a frame that works with the piece.

    Finally, custom frames ARE higher quality than ready-made frames. The glass in ready-made frames is usually the cheapest glass possible, where with custom framing you can purchase museum glass or antiglare glass. Second, when a print is custom framed, they use archival materials as backing materials which will protect the photograph. Many ready-made frames have things such as Styrofoam, acid cardboard, and pressed masonite board as backing to the picture. All of these are dangerous to the life of the photograph as they contain acids, glues, and chemicals which will deteriorate the photograph over time.

    Many years ago I purchased an old Adams print that had been framed with a masonite backing for about 30 years. The whole back of the mount had been yellowed and was starting to work its way to the front of the mount! Another case happened when I purchased a Cole Weston print which had been framed with cardboard on the back since the 1960's. The back of the mat had discolored and was causing spotting on the front of the mount to show!

    So anyways, go ahead and use cheep frames for all your photographs. Maybe you just don't care about your photographs as much as some of us other photographers do.

    Regards,

    Ryan McIntosh
    www.RyanMcIntosh.net

  10. #20

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    Maybe you should give your client and others credit for maybe, possibly, knowing a thing or two about frames and proper framing proceedures. I happen to be a very accomplished framer. Happily frame my stuff and other folk's stuff. Your assumption that I needed to be educated about frames and proper framing proceedures says alot. DO you make this naive assumption about your clients as well? I stand by my original post.
    Technological society has succeeded in multiplying the opportunities for pleasure, but it has great difficulty in generating joy. Pope Paul VI

    So, I think the "greats" were true to their visions, once their visions no longer sucked. Ralph Barker 12/2004

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