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  1. #121
    Robert Brummitt's Avatar
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    We must be living in the 19 century then.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressionism
    I remember reading how in France, the Salons said what was painting and what was not. They controlled what was hung and what was shown in the public.
    These are not paintings! These little splashes of paint. Where are the details? Where are strokes? This figure has lost all its details. The light is too bright! Why is it so colorful?! It's not worthy.
    They were speaking of the works by Monet, Manet and others.
    The same is said of Painters towards "gasp"...Photographers.
    People hate change and avoid it.
    Are we doing the same about analog to digital.
    Your gallery friend seems to think so.
    It's a shame.
    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit"
    Aristotle

  2. #122
    keithwms's Avatar
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    Excuse me! I think I'm going to vent...

    Look, digital has all but eliminated the analogue craft from the planet. Many of our most prized cameras and films and papers are gone; many companies are gone; darkrooms and minilabs have closed all over the world; the subject of how to work with film has even fallen off the curriculum at major schools, and a whole new generation of photographers is being taught that they have to spend $40000 to do large format photography... and yet some of you actually feel that a little pro-analogue activism expressed on APUG is out of place?! Really.

    Well I feel better now.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

    [APUG Portfolio] [APUG Blog] [Website]

  3. #123
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  4. #124
    Curt's Avatar
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    Indeed, it is my view that a new secessionist movement is again timely and in order!
    This person mentions something I've been thinking about after extensive study for the Santa Fe workshop, I haven't come up with a name or actually found someone who has but I have read from others who say we are moving in a different direction. A Post Post Modern period may just be that new movement, call it what you like, but with digital in the mix there is no better time for a new movement in "traditional" hand made photography. A definitive description is left to be decided by the artists who have devoted their lives to their craft and now is the time for a demarcation.

    Quite often these changes are caused by one single person who stands up and says that things are not what they should be. Look at history, there are people throughout history who started movements. I would like to see one right now with "traditional", "analog" photography. I don't even think the word analog is correct, no offense Sean, it ties traditional photography to digital. Like it's a second uncle twice removed who isn't talked about that much. When I have been asked what kind of photography I do I've had a hard time with "analog", I find myself explaining what traditional film and darkroom photography is. After the long history of photography, all of the 20Th Century, I have to explain what a photography is because the vast majority of the population doesn't know what Analog means. Is there a better street name for what Photography is these days?

    This is not meant to start an argument and I enjoy what Sean Ross has created here. I wouldn't have a forum for such discussion if it hadn't been created. We know what analog is here but out there in the World it is so clear cut.

    What is the current movement and what would the new movement be. Is it a visual movement or a technical movement or is it a visual and technical movement. Is it regional or global. An accurate description of the processes might be in order. What makes a traditional photograph, hand made in a traditional darkroom perhaps or in a traditional way different than a digital image.

    What makes a digital image, differences and similarities between the two. Digital has a place in image making, it is here and it will stay, until it has become outdated and superseded by a new imaging method. Science and technology is moving at a faster pace than people had imagined it would. Many new things are possible and we can't envision what the future may or may not hold.

    The one thing that I see is that mixing the two methods is causing some real problems. Can a new movement clear up this jumble of alphabet soup imaging mix, I don't know for sure, who would, but clearly it would be a great opportunity to create or recreate the grand traditional processes of printmaking as we knew it and continue to make unique images. The questions are where are we now, where were we and where are we going and what are be going to be defined as.

    In my mind there is Photography, Digital Imaging, and Mixed Imaging. The mixed imaging is the combination of the two or a convergence of the two types. For example digital negatives use for making what is known as traditional prints, Platinum, Carbon, Silver, etc.. Or an other example is using roll film in a camera, developing it, then scanning it and making an Inkjet print. There are other combinations of course but that's what I consider mixed. As much as I don't like labels it's a way to define what is happening.

    It's my my take on the issue and my opinion, a bit long maybe but just part of what I've been thinking about in my own work. I had one comment when taking my camera out in the field just recently. One person said "Why bother, digital is so simple and quick". I said, "Why bother to breath when you can be put on a ventilator". The person didn't get it and just walked away confused.

    Curt
    Everytime I find a film or paper that I like, they discontinue it. - Paul Strand - Aperture monograph on Strand

  5. #125

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    Until I see facts stating otherwise, I will respectfully disagree that digital prints have reduced the 'value' of prints. Also anyone who think that there isn't skill or rigor required to make a flawless digital print is uneducated.

    I learned both digital and analog photography at the same time. For every developer I've tried, there had be 10 types of digital paper. For every film I tried there was settings and various inks to try in the printer(s). For every type of RC or Fiber paper I tried there was a rigorous workflow and calibration routine to perform.

    Sure, somethings are really quick and easy to do on a computer. But in my experience it takes hours upon hours of computer work, followed by hours of printing to get a satisfactory result. I was trained not to look at an image and accept it as good.

    I believe that it takes me close to the same amount of time for me to produce a fine analog print as a fine digital print.

    There have always been shit photographs. And those photographs have always been published and bought. Does the sloppy work of a traditional photographer bring down the value of the technical experts work? Not to the customers who care. Does the sloppy work of a digital photographer bring down the value of a skilled photographer (film or digital)? Again I say no. And if I am wrong, it is not the fault of the crappy photographer. It is the fault of the rest of the photographic community for failing to help people appreciate well done images.

    To the OP, do whatever you want. But I think you are hurting the cause of analog photography. We are often seen as grumpy old men/woman who doesn't understand this newfangled digital thingy and therefor we will keep using our Stanley steamers. I am choosing to use analog photography as my primary medium because I think it is cool and feels right!

    Seriously, this is like a oil painter refusing to show with an acrylic painter.

    The argument is similar:

    The oil painter must carefully design their paintings structure to prevent uneven drying and cracking. Chemically acrylics can't hold the same pigment content as oil paints. They appear to be 'shiny' and slightly duller than an oil. Oils have been around for centuries, but acrylics are about 40 years old. But they encourage playfulness. There are dozens of mediums to customize your painting experience with acrylics. Speed up the drying, slow it down Bulk it up, give it texture, thin it into a glaze.

    The oil painter must carefully design their paintings structure to prevent uneven drying and cracking.



    EDIT Also to the OP: Ansco 130 FTW. mmm
    Last edited by alexhill; 10-14-2010 at 07:54 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #126
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    To me there is a difference between the feel and the look of a double weight fiber print and the best digital print. From that point alone I can see Per's point.

    I have looked at and handled Per's work and the real thing is much better than any of his work viewed from a computer screen. Frankly, most other work pales next to his, but the lower prices of the digital prints would hurt his sales.
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  7. #127

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    Yes Alex...

    In order to be critical and select our own direction it is necessary to fully understand differences in media.

    Alongside my photography I have for years used Photoshop, Illustrator, In Design and a bunch of other image making program for graphic design work.
    My first Photoshop version was 3.0, well before layers were invented.
    Until recently I had two large Epson printers in the office.
    In addition I do paint with both oils and water color... I began my career in the arts as an illustrator... a long time ago...



    While my decision was based on personal preference for how I want to show and sell my work I also feel that it may be a good marketing / PR strategy (again from my point of view). I live and breathe art (and darkroom fumes) 24/7
    so it is necessary for me to constantly try new directions in promoting my work.

    This is by no means a gimmick as I totally stand behind my decision.

    Per


    http://www.pervolquartz.com

  8. #128
    clayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexhill
    Until I see facts stating otherwise, I will respectfully disagree that digital prints have reduced the 'value' of prints. Also anyone who think that there isn't skill or rigor required to make a flawless digital print is uneducated.
    A digital print has NO hand-made aspect being brought into it whatsoever. Printing in the darkroom, under the enlarger, wands flying back and forth, development in the tray influenced by feel and frequency, toning by feel, etc., etc. This is NOT present in digital prints and is intrinsic to the darkroom process. You know this.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexhill
    Sure, somethings are really quick and easy to do on a computer. But in my experience it takes hours upon hours of computer work, followed by hours of printing to get a satisfactory result. I was trained not to look at an image and accept it as good.

    I believe that it takes me close to the same amount of time for me to produce a fine analog print as a fine digital print.
    I think you should re-examine your methods or what you consider as factors to determine a print as "done." Also, once a digital print is "done" it can be stamped out endlessly. This absolutely cheapens the value of prints.

    Quote Originally Posted by keithwms View Post
    Excuse me! I think I'm going to vent...

    Look, digital has all but eliminated the analogue craft from the planet. Many of our most prized cameras and films and papers are gone; many companies are gone; darkrooms and minilabs have closed all over the world; the subject of how to work with film has even fallen off the curriculum at major schools, and a whole new generation of photographers is being taught that they have to spend $40000 to do large format photography... and yet some of you actually feel that a little pro-analogue activism expressed on APUG is out of place?! Really.

    Well I feel better now.
    A-F-Men.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  9. #129
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexhill View Post
    Until I see facts stating otherwise, I will respectfully disagree that digital prints have reduced the 'value' of prints. Also anyone who think that there isn't skill or rigor required to make a flawless digital print is uneducated.
    The problem is the print (or send) button. Literally once finished a digital image can be reproduced/copied exactly, instantly, cheaply, and reliably.

    It is so reliable that when I owned a studio and shot digital I used two different labs completely interchangably and clients could never tell the difference. Pro-Labs turn out thousands of flawless prints daily.

    Can't say that about my enlarger prints. I might be able get 8 prints an hour through my enlarger and Jobo.

    The basic thing a computer does is automate tasks. People understand that. People expect digital stuff cheap (and expect to get more).
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  10. #130
    chriscrawfordphoto's Avatar
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    If the OP wants to shoot himself in the foot by giving up exhibition opportunities because, God Forbid, there might be a digital print on the walls nearby, so be it. You have every right to be stupid in our society, its still a free country. For those who make art because we have something to say rather than to demonstrate that we've mastered some archane technical skill, his decision just makes more room for those whose work is culturally relevant.

    This whole thing reminds me of people in the past who refused to eat at restaurants that served black people, because the thought of maybe sitting next to a 'n----r' offended them so grievously. They only hurt themselves....the blacks whose presence offended the racist so deeply kept eating and were probably glad to be left alone by such ignorant fools.
    Chris Crawford
    Fine Art Photography of Indiana and other places no one else photographs.

    http://www.chriscrawfordphoto.com

    My Tested Developing Times with the films and developers I use

    Become a fan of my work on Facebook

    Fort Wayne, Indiana



 

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