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  1. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by per volquartz View Post
    I truly care about imagery and am not at all tied to processes, the tools and how they feel and smell. lol...
    That remark of mine wasn't aimed at you, Per.
    But at the suggestion that people who care more about the image then about the smell of fix in the morning are to be found in the "general public" and not among serious photographers.

    But yes, my view is that people who indeed don't care about the process, materials, etc. nearly as much (if at all) as the image are the only people who are photographers.

  2. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by markrewald View Post
    Suckered into another anti-digital rant. I would like to see a forum created that is appropriate for these postings and then I can ignore. Subject line is "Taking a stand... " Here I was thinking it was on stand development.
    I don't think it is an anti-digital rant really.
    It is about the suggestion that, say (an analogy creates distance, and thus clarity. But yes, is always imperfect too) that a great novel cannot be written except using a specific pen of a particular brand, and only of the right 'vintage', on specially selected paper, by the light of a particular bulb in a specific lamp.

    We must not allow ourselves and our purpose to get lost in a such an irrelevant web of details about the process. Except, perhaps, if you don't really have a purpose other than messing with lots of stuff without a purpose.
    But that's not being creative. That's being a tinkerer, a hobbyist who spends all of his time building dog pens for the fun of it, without having or intending to have a dog to make use of it.

  3. #73
    MattKing's Avatar
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    It seems important to me that the stand that Per is taking relates solely to where he intends to exhibit his own work. I don't really understand why he supports his comments by referring to other types of photography generally - especially given the fact that he is at least open to working with those who use digital methods (see the workshops on his website).

    I would guess that at least statistically, if you limit yourself to exhibitions that feature analogue materials, you will be more likely to be displayed alongside work from more experienced photographers, because there are relatively fewer inexperienced photographers who exhibit using those materials, but a higher quality of "competition" certainly wouldn't be guaranteed.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  4. #74
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    It is about the suggestion that, say (an analogy creates distance, and thus clarity. But yes, is always imperfect too) that a great novel cannot be written except using a specific pen of a particular brand, and only of the right 'vintage', on specially selected paper, by the light of a particular bulb in a specific lamp.
    In your analogy, Per is a calligrapher. Digital imaging is Microsoft Word.
    f/22 and be there.

  5. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by BetterSense View Post
    In your analogy, Per is a calligrapher. Digital imaging is Microsoft Word.
    I can live with that analogy, yes.
    So a great novel can only be written by a calligrapher. Turns into worthless drivel the moment the same words are recorded using MS Word...

    Neither calligraphy nor Word will produce a great novel. And we want to read, produce even, a great novel.

  6. #76
    CGW
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    Do the images sell? Art without commerce is just a hobby, right?

  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Do the images sell? Art without commerce is just a hobby, right?
    Nah... Despite the huge commerce surrounding art (as it does anything of value, right? ), art does not need commerce to be art.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q.G. View Post
    Nah... Despite the huge commerce surrounding art (as it does anything of value, right? ), art does not need commerce to be art.
    True, as far as I can tell.
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

  9. #79
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    I know Per's feeling of being in a group show in which you have put 40 hours into something, and some of your group members have put in 8, yet the stuff is tagged with similar prices. It is frustrating.

    However, this is still focusing on process and not on the value of the stuff as conceptual and/or visual art. You need to get out of your own ego and just enjoy the show...or not participate in it.

    If this frustration is truly unbearable, and not worth it, I would find yourself a better show, and/or elevate the value of your work and your prestige as an artist to a level at which you do not need to participate in a group show – in which the stage is all yours.

    I stated it before, but I want to say it again; bad art and good art are made with any media. It is artists' work itself that should be judged as either good or bad – not the media used. If you want to make divisions based solely on media, you are shortchanging yourself and others, and stating that you really don't have anything to say with your art anyhow; it is just a technical display – nothing but the artifact resulting from a specific craft having been practiced; you have nothing to discuss or explore with it but the techniques used.

    How about challenging yourself to truly explore the work of your fellow artists, finding people with whom you blend conceptually, then trying to arrange shows with only these people? The problem with this is that it is harder and more intellectual than saying, "I won't participate in group shows that feature digital work." It requires actual thought, judgment, and artistry, unlike the current technique employed to determine ones participation or lack thereof in a group show. What is being done is akin to racism, as opposed to individual judgment of a person.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 10-13-2010 at 04:23 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  10. #80
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    Like QG and 2F say - what matters is content and not process; digital is popular because it is easier on the time taken and it has a shorter learning curve than darkroom work, allowing people to make great art with much less time invested both in learning and in creating each print. Just because they didn't have to suffer for their art as much as you did does not diminish the quality of their final results, it just means that they chose a different medium, a different craft.

    Digital photography is a craft in the same way that analogue photography is a craft. They're different ways of achieving the same thing, an item of visual art. It doesn't matter which craft you choose, the quality of the art depends only on the composition, emotion and other symbolic aspects that go into the final product - the art. The art doesn't get bonus points for being more difficult to execute physically, just as writing a novel with a pen instead of a typewriter doesn't make the novel any better - your readers care not that you slaved over parchment and used a gallon of ink, they care about plot and character.

    Painters unversed in photography (as the OP seems to be in the output of good digital photographers) could equally assert that there are no masterpieces produced on film and that they will only associate with people who produce images with a brush and who spent days on a single image. That is their choice, but it is just as ill-informed.

    While it's great that APUG exists and contains mountains of useful information for analogue photographers (that is why I am here), the continuous "I hate digital" bashing is seriously, seriously tiresome. Digital is a different craft and therefore should not be discussed on APUG at all - not in terms of technique and not in terms of "I hates it". I don't care if you don't get it, if you think it's inferior, if you think it's too easy, whatever. APUG is APUG not anti-DPUG. The "I hate digital" threads smell entirely too strongly to me of that politician's favourite trick of "othering", i.e. demarcating a specific group as being different from "us" and therefore bad; it works because someone tells the "us" that they are superior for some nebulous reason and, well, people do love to feel superior. Xenophobia is one of the most effective ways of uniting people for a common cause, but it has a cost - you end up with a bunch of xenophobes. Just because you didn't like digital photography, didn't get it, didn't understand it, felt that it failed you, whatever - we don't care; please don't try to take over APUG with a neo-luddite crowd who are united only by affirmation of their distaste for some other craft rather than their love for the craft that they actually practise.

    Can we please have discussions of the finer points of the art of photography instead? I'm going to make an analogy here with another forum, dyxum. They're not analogue, but they don't spend all their time hating on other processes or (even though it's a brand-centric forum) any time hating on other brands; in fact it was a group of film users on dyxum that got me onto analogue. They spend a bunch of time talking about technology, specifications (they regularly get new products to play with of course, so there's a lot of careful testing and experimentation) and techniques of their craft, as well as the art that underlies it all.

    APUG has "techniques of the craft" covered nicely but needs more of the art, more positivity, more learning, and less of the negativity, bitching and xenophobia.
    Last edited by polyglot; 10-13-2010 at 05:13 PM. Click to view previous post history.

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