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  1. #81
    MaximusM3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polyglot View Post
    Like QG and 2F say - what matters is content and not process; digital is popular because it is easier on the time taken and it has a shorter learning curve than darkroom work, allowing people to make great art with much less time invested both in learning and in creating each print. Just because they didn't have to suffer for their art as much as you did does not diminish the quality of their final results, it just means that they chose a different medium, a different craft.

    Digital photography is a craft in the same way that analogue photography is a craft. They're different ways of achieving the same thing, an item of visual art. It doesn't matter which craft you choose, the quality of the art depends only on the composition, emotion and other symbolic aspects that go into the final product - the art. The art doesn't get bonus points for being more difficult to execute physically, just as writing a novel with a pen instead of a typewriter doesn't make the novel any better - your readers care not that you slaved over parchment and used a gallon of ink, they care about plot and character.

    Painters unversed in photography (as the OP seems to be in the output of good digital photographers) could equally assert that there are no masterpieces produced on film and that they will only associate with people who produce images with a brush and who spent days on a single image. That is their choice, but it is just as ill-informed.

    While it's great that APUG exists and contains mountains of useful information for analogue photographers (that is why I am here), the continuous "I hate digital" bashing is seriously, seriously tiresome. Digital is a different craft and therefore should not be discussed on APUG at all - not in terms of technique and not in terms of "I hates it". I don't care if you don't get it, if you think it's inferior, if you think it's too easy, whatever. APUG is APUG not anti-DPUG. The "I hate digital" threads smell entirely too strongly to me of that politician's favourite trick of "othering", i.e. demarcating a specific group as being different from "us" and therefore bad; it works because someone tells the "us" that they are superior for some nebulous reason and, well, people do love to feel superior. Xenophobia is one of the most effective ways of uniting people for a common cause, but it has a cost - you end up with a bunch of xenophobes. Just because you didn't like digital photography, didn't get it, didn't understand it, felt that it failed you, whatever - we don't care; please don't try to take over APUG with a neo-luddite crowd who are united only by affirmation of their distaste for some other craft rather than their love for the craft that they actually practise.

    Can we please have discussions of the finer points of the art of photography instead? I'm going to make an analogy here with another forum, dyxum. They're not analogue, but they don't spend all their time hating on other processes or (even though it's a brand-centric forum) any time hating on other brands; in fact it was a group of film users on dyxum that got me onto analogue. They spend a bunch of time talking about technology, specifications (they regularly get new products to play with of course, so there's a lot of careful testing and experimentation) and techniques of their craft, as well as the art that underlies it all.

    APUG has "techniques of the craft" covered nicely but needs more of the art, more positivity, more learning, and less of the negativity, bitching and xenophobia.
    Actually, I don't think this thread has been about "digital versus analog" or "I hate digital" at all, but maybe I missed it. If it was a mud-slinging fest, Jason would have locked it already, as he has stated.

  2. #82
    polyglot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusM3 View Post
    Actually, I don't think this thread has been about "digital versus analog" or "I hate digital" at all, but maybe I missed it. If it was a mud-slinging fest, Jason would have locked it already, as he has stated.
    In terms of discussion that is true. But it is the fundamental underlying sentiment that started it all.

  3. #83
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q.G. View Post
    Nah... Despite the huge commerce surrounding art (as it does anything of value, right? ), art does not need commerce to be art.
    The good folks at Sotheby's would have a laugh over that one! If you don't sell it, it's a just hobby, kids.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    The good folks at Sotheby's would have a laugh over that one! If you don't sell it, it's a just hobby, kids.
    That's absurd.

    The folks at Sotheby's can laugh all they want; they're not artists, they're merchants.

    I've seen some amazing art done on concrete with spray cans. It's done by artists with something to say who have no way to sell it.
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

  5. #85
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    Well anywaaay....

    I see nothing with expressing pride in the analogue process and thinking aloud about how to promote it. Offhand, I don't see any anti-digital hatred in here, and if you go back... waaay back... you will note that I mentioned that some of Per's work is hybrid. Per's not a digital hater. I am certain that he didn't intend for it to come across that way.

    As for me, my [novice] thoughts are quite different from Per's, although I respect his right to say what he wants, heaven knows he's earned that. As for me, I think we should embrace every possible opportunity to place an analogue print next to an inkjet print. Better yet: leave the glass off, leave the mats off, and let people feel the paper and sense the craftsmanship. if you want to keep analogue alive, you have to show people ... to teach people... what the value is. And as someone who's taught young people about the analogue process, I can tell you that it's still as cool and magical to them as it was to our great grandparents.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  6. #86
    clayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q.G. View Post
    I can live with that analogy, yes.
    So a great novel can only be written by a calligrapher. Turns into worthless drivel the moment the same words are recorded using MS Word...

    Neither calligraphy nor Word will produce a great novel. And we want to read, produce even, a great novel.
    Ah but you're missing something here that's quite intrinsic to the method, QG. Think hard on it. I'll give you a hint - it's related to committing to what one has already created - rather than relying on the ability to undo or instantly change ala digital.

    The method *does* influence the results - and not necessarily in a minor way.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  7. #87
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by lxdude View Post
    That's absurd.

    The folks at Sotheby's can laugh all they want; they're not artists, they're merchants.

    I've seen some amazing art done on concrete with spray cans. It's done by artists with something to say who have no way to sell it.
    The good folks at Sotheby's, as well as collectors, curators and academics, all make that call, dude, not you. Banksy does OK for himself with spray cans, thanks to recognition from those "merchants." Even "outsider art" got to be "art" because someone whose taste matters deemed it so. It's worth what the art market says it's worth--now or later doesn't really matter. Kitsch is, however much you admire it, still kitsch.

  8. #88
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Even "outsider art" got to be "art" because someone whose taste matters deemed it so. It's worth what the art market says it's worth--now or later doesn't really matter. Kitsch is, however much you admire it, still kitsch.
    Your confusing "the business" with "the art".

    Sure, if you intend to make a living with "the art" then the market value matters, if you just want to make a statement or make somebody happy the market does not matter.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  9. #89
    sun of sand's Avatar
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    i just wanted to be the one who says 9 pages

  10. #90
    CGW
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    [QUOTE=markbarendt;1075790]Your confusing "the business" with "the art".

    Sure, if you intend to make a living with "the art" then the market value matters, if you just want to make a statement or make somebody happy the market does not matter.[/QUOTE

    That's nice but you can't separate the Art from the Market. I'm guessing anyone who regularly sells work gets this. Otherwise, it's just self-indulgence, a hobby.



 

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