Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 70,225   Posts: 1,532,661   Online: 854
      
Page 12 of 19 FirstFirst ... 26789101112131415161718 ... LastLast
Results 111 to 120 of 182
  1. #111
    AndreasT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Berlin
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    353
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    Isn't this what the Dorst and Jones/"Windmill" diagrams show?

    The real problem is people think they can simply apply N-X development to a negative to "fit" the paper, and maintain N local contrast. This is a real problem with how people think about compensating development for example. There's this notion out there you can somehow compress total contrast in the negative without compressing local contrast. Lucky for them they don't get as much compensation as they think they do.
    This got me thinking, while I agree with you mostly. Wouldn't you say if there is a need for compensation, there is generaly more harsh light which gives more contrst in the scene. So that when compensation does reduce local contrast it wouldn't be that much since there is more to start with.

  2. #112
    AndreasT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Berlin
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    353
    This may be very well too technical. I think PE and Stephen both are right and possible wrong. I find this difficult to understand. Won't you all come to Berlin and give me a lecture please.
    Graphs are rather abstract, for some more than others. Now I don't have the desire to go reading long fat books about this stuff. It takes a lot of time and money.
    When I try to explain just the film curve to some people I know they have a problem understanding that. That is the first simple basic step.
    What I do miss from the beginning, at least that is my felling is that the comunication between film makers and photographers is missing.
    The why and the how.
    Yes the BTZS program does help in this.
    This all certainly opens up to concidering more what is involved. Certainly way more than saying use this film/paper it is good. When few can say why.

  3. #113
    markbarendt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ignacio, CO, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    5,665
    Blog Entries
    3
    Images
    19
    Okay, going to try a different illustration to show the relationship of subject matter to print.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image.jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	169.9 KB 
ID:	67494

    Forget the real numbers, my scribbles are not to scale. They are meant only to convey a concept.

    In this case I want to show how various changes in development might change our choices of camera or enlarger exposure.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image.jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	184.6 KB 
ID:	67495

    I know it is cluttered, sorry, but these are hand drawn. In the second example the alternate print range is added and it shows how shadow detail gets lost below the paper's range. If we put 2&2 together we can see that we could reduce camera exposure and get the same print range. With careful observation and a little imagination we get to see how and why a push works and the compromises it makes without 7 pages of text.
    Last edited by markbarendt; 04-20-2013 at 07:58 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  4. #114
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    1,218
    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    Okay, going to try a different illustration to show the relationship of subject matter to print.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image.jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	169.9 KB 
ID:	67494

    Forget the real numbers, my scribbles are not to scale. They are meant only to convey a concept.

    In this case I want to show how various changes in development might change our choices of camera or enlarger exposure.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image.jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	184.6 KB 
ID:	67495

    I know it is cluttered, sorry, but these are hand drawn. In the second example the alternate print range is added and it shows how shadow detail gets lost below the paper's range. If we put 2&2 together we can see that we could reduce camera exposure and get the same print range. With careful observation and a little imagination we get to see how and why a push works and the compromises it makes without 7 pages of text.
    Mark, this makes a lot more sense. The same thing might be able to be accomplished with a simple line graph using density vs time. I have a similar function in my family of curves plotting program. The purpose isn't for display or communication so you will have to bear with me. The density projection function will take a starting density at a specified development time and using a density time curve derived from the family of curves it will determine the development time necessary to achieve a target density. What you could do is take two or three density time curves overlaying Zone System print references.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ScreenHunter_42 Apr. 20 06.15.jpg 
Views:	7 
Size:	27.9 KB 
ID:	67500

    Okay, I just realized that while it would be a cleaner graph, it would probably need a program to do. Your way would be easier to create by hand.

  5. #115
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    1,218
    Quote Originally Posted by AndreasT View Post
    This may be very well too technical. I think PE and Stephen both are right and possible wrong. I find this difficult to understand. Won't you all come to Berlin and give me a lecture please.
    Graphs are rather abstract, for some more than others. Now I don't have the desire to go reading long fat books about this stuff. It takes a lot of time and money.
    When I try to explain just the film curve to some people I know they have a problem understanding that. That is the first simple basic step.
    What I do miss from the beginning, at least that is my felling is that the comunication between film makers and photographers is missing.
    The why and the how.
    Yes the BTZS program does help in this.
    This all certainly opens up to concidering more what is involved. Certainly way more than saying use this film/paper it is good. When few can say why.
    Andreas, as will all things it comes easier with time and experience. The tone reproduction diagram is supposed to give an overview of the process. Attempting to include too much detail would make it difficult to read, but it is also desirable to derived specific information from the graphs. Keeping it both easy to read while still being able to obtain detailed information is one of the advantages of it being a program. I can turn on and off guidelines and labels, and I can also bring up a spreadsheet of all the data points (in the example, Quad 4 data is the gradient between the guidelines). If everyone could interact with the diagram, I'm sure it wouldn't seem so complex.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	4 Quad with details.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	503.6 KB 
ID:	67501

    Without the guideline, there isn't much that can be derived.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	4 Quad no guidelines.jpg 
Views:	4 
Size:	471.9 KB 
ID:	67502
    Last edited by Stephen Benskin; 04-20-2013 at 09:03 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #116
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    22,972
    Images
    65
    Stephen, you are right. Who am I to say what is easy and what is too complex. All I can do is suggest what might be easier than some other method, and this is based on doing things from the ground up. All I can do is judge based on my learning curve and then try to place myself in the footsteps of someone else posting here.

    I appear to have done a poor job if the other posts are any indication. Perhaps us both teaching a class would help. That might be an interesting GEH workshop. "The design of a photographic print system from film to paper"

    PE
    Last edited by Photo Engineer; 04-20-2013 at 01:27 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Error in syntax. Sorry.

  7. #117
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    1,218
    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    All I can do is suggest what might be easier than some other method, and this is based on doing things from the ground up. All I can do is judge based on my learning curve and then try to place myself in someone the footsteps of someone else posting here.
    That is probably how you meant to convey it. It's so easy to misinterpret tone and intent here.

  8. #118
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    22,972
    Images
    65
    That is exactly right Stephen. I have done this job a number of ways in B&W and color both. I have also fixed the syntax in my post above.

    PE

  9. #119

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    4,609
    Quote Originally Posted by AndreasT View Post
    This got me thinking, while I agree with you mostly. Wouldn't you say if there is a need for compensation, there is generaly more harsh light which gives more contrst in the scene. So that when compensation does reduce local contrast it wouldn't be that much since there is more to start with.
    A wide subject luminance range does not imply high local contrast, just high total contrast. In any case, I want to clarify I'm not advocating against minus development. I'm just trying to get people to think more about what they are doing, why they are doing it, and what is actually happening (or not).

  10. #120

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    4,609
    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Excellent series of references Stephen. The problem is that they are overly complex for the average person.

    PE
    I think it is the opposite actually. They only appear complex at first glance. There is nothing all that complicated about the theory or the graphical illustrations if one takes them a step at a time. Like anything else it then becomes easier with practice and thought. The diagrams might look overwhelming and busy at first, but that's because they illustrate an end to end system, and it doesn't take long to get comfortable with them. Haist's diagrams are nice and clean, but they are pure H&D, meaning things like flare are not considered. Haist says this himself. They make sense if you have a good understanding of tone reproduction theory, but for the "average person" they don't show much about tone reproduction.



 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin