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  1. #111
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Okay, going to try a different illustration to show the relationship of subject matter to print.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Forget the real numbers, my scribbles are not to scale. They are meant only to convey a concept.

    In this case I want to show how various changes in development might change our choices of camera or enlarger exposure.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I know it is cluttered, sorry, but these are hand drawn. In the second example the alternate print range is added and it shows how shadow detail gets lost below the paper's range. If we put 2&2 together we can see that we could reduce camera exposure and get the same print range. With careful observation and a little imagination we get to see how and why a push works and the compromises it makes without 7 pages of text.
    Last edited by markbarendt; 04-20-2013 at 07:58 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  2. #112
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    Okay, going to try a different illustration to show the relationship of subject matter to print.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image.jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	169.9 KB 
ID:	67494

    Forget the real numbers, my scribbles are not to scale. They are meant only to convey a concept.

    In this case I want to show how various changes in development might change our choices of camera or enlarger exposure.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image.jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	184.6 KB 
ID:	67495

    I know it is cluttered, sorry, but these are hand drawn. In the second example the alternate print range is added and it shows how shadow detail gets lost below the paper's range. If we put 2&2 together we can see that we could reduce camera exposure and get the same print range. With careful observation and a little imagination we get to see how and why a push works and the compromises it makes without 7 pages of text.
    Mark, this makes a lot more sense. The same thing might be able to be accomplished with a simple line graph using density vs time. I have a similar function in my family of curves plotting program. The purpose isn't for display or communication so you will have to bear with me. The density projection function will take a starting density at a specified development time and using a density time curve derived from the family of curves it will determine the development time necessary to achieve a target density. What you could do is take two or three density time curves overlaying Zone System print references.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Okay, I just realized that while it would be a cleaner graph, it would probably need a program to do. Your way would be easier to create by hand.

  3. #113
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreasT View Post
    This may be very well too technical. I think PE and Stephen both are right and possible wrong. I find this difficult to understand. Won't you all come to Berlin and give me a lecture please.
    Graphs are rather abstract, for some more than others. Now I don't have the desire to go reading long fat books about this stuff. It takes a lot of time and money.
    When I try to explain just the film curve to some people I know they have a problem understanding that. That is the first simple basic step.
    What I do miss from the beginning, at least that is my felling is that the comunication between film makers and photographers is missing.
    The why and the how.
    Yes the BTZS program does help in this.
    This all certainly opens up to concidering more what is involved. Certainly way more than saying use this film/paper it is good. When few can say why.
    Andreas, as will all things it comes easier with time and experience. The tone reproduction diagram is supposed to give an overview of the process. Attempting to include too much detail would make it difficult to read, but it is also desirable to derived specific information from the graphs. Keeping it both easy to read while still being able to obtain detailed information is one of the advantages of it being a program. I can turn on and off guidelines and labels, and I can also bring up a spreadsheet of all the data points (in the example, Quad 4 data is the gradient between the guidelines). If everyone could interact with the diagram, I'm sure it wouldn't seem so complex.

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    Without the guideline, there isn't much that can be derived.

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    Last edited by Stephen Benskin; 04-20-2013 at 09:03 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #114
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Stephen, you are right. Who am I to say what is easy and what is too complex. All I can do is suggest what might be easier than some other method, and this is based on doing things from the ground up. All I can do is judge based on my learning curve and then try to place myself in the footsteps of someone else posting here.

    I appear to have done a poor job if the other posts are any indication. Perhaps us both teaching a class would help. That might be an interesting GEH workshop. "The design of a photographic print system from film to paper"

    PE
    Last edited by Photo Engineer; 04-20-2013 at 01:27 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Error in syntax. Sorry.

  5. #115
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    All I can do is suggest what might be easier than some other method, and this is based on doing things from the ground up. All I can do is judge based on my learning curve and then try to place myself in someone the footsteps of someone else posting here.
    That is probably how you meant to convey it. It's so easy to misinterpret tone and intent here.

  6. #116
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    That is exactly right Stephen. I have done this job a number of ways in B&W and color both. I have also fixed the syntax in my post above.

    PE

  7. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreasT View Post
    This got me thinking, while I agree with you mostly. Wouldn't you say if there is a need for compensation, there is generaly more harsh light which gives more contrst in the scene. So that when compensation does reduce local contrast it wouldn't be that much since there is more to start with.
    A wide subject luminance range does not imply high local contrast, just high total contrast. In any case, I want to clarify I'm not advocating against minus development. I'm just trying to get people to think more about what they are doing, why they are doing it, and what is actually happening (or not).

  8. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Excellent series of references Stephen. The problem is that they are overly complex for the average person.

    PE
    I think it is the opposite actually. They only appear complex at first glance. There is nothing all that complicated about the theory or the graphical illustrations if one takes them a step at a time. Like anything else it then becomes easier with practice and thought. The diagrams might look overwhelming and busy at first, but that's because they illustrate an end to end system, and it doesn't take long to get comfortable with them. Haist's diagrams are nice and clean, but they are pure H&D, meaning things like flare are not considered. Haist says this himself. They make sense if you have a good understanding of tone reproduction theory, but for the "average person" they don't show much about tone reproduction.

  9. #119
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    It would seem to me that the intent of a mask is to create an artificially softened toe or shoulder or both.

    Maybe like this.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by markbarendt; 04-20-2013 at 08:04 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  10. #120
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    It would seem to me that the intent of a mask is to create an artificially softened toe or shoulder or both.

    Maybe like this.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That's one purpose for a mask. The example from Theory of the Photographic Process was to show the effects of a mask on local detail in the print compared to a print from the negative alone. What adds to the apparent complexity is that it illustrates this with two different paper grades.

    I actually have a function in my family of curves program that's similar to your idea. It defines a specified density range in the curve family. I haven't used it in so long, I forgot it as there. The bottom reference is fixed at 0.10 over Fb+f but it wouldn't take too much effort to make it adjustable. The curves are plotted minus the film base.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Stephen Benskin; 04-20-2013 at 08:31 PM. Click to view previous post history.



 

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