Switch to English Language Passer en langue franšaise Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 71,813   Posts: 1,581,578   Online: 926
      
Page 2 of 19 FirstFirst 1234567812 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 182
  1. #11
    Shawn Dougherty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    4,141
    Images
    298
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    It's difficult to know what is actually happening without objective testing - which is not necessarily easy to do. But if it is working, I'd say keep doing whatever you're doing. We all learn to print with the negatives we make, regardless of whether or not they are exactly the way we think they are. There's enough room in the materials. In any case I was referring to more extreme contractions and dilute solvent developers.

    Apologies to Mark if I derailed the thread. Back to his diagram now.
    That's true. I do not have a densitometer so it's not something I could do at this point anyway. You addressed much of what I was wondering about in the boomerang thread, anyway. Again, thanks for your thoughts. They are always appreciated.

  2. #12
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    23,521
    Images
    65

    Actual film and print ranges

    Here are the ranges for film, paper and print. They are superimposed so the meaning of the horizontal (X) axis is lost. However, for the film curve, each 2 digits on the horizontal axis is one about one zone.

    PE
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails film-paper-print curves.jpg  

  3. #13
    CPorter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    West KY
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    1,662
    Images
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    Attachment 67316

    The graphic above is a very rough illustration of an idea.

    SBR is scene brightness range, PBR is the paper.

    The problem I see is that many people expect what is caught on the negative to translate directly to paper.

    Part of what I wanted to illustrate was how the subject matter can carry through and how the paper rather than the negative defines the photo.

    Another was to show why/how film under or overexposure loses info. In a related way why there is latitude when negatives are in use.
    IMO, getting what is on the negative directly onto paper is not expecting too much at all. The limitation of the paper dictates the density range of the negative. The range of brightnesses that one can encounter in the field and put on the negative, on the order of------"1:several thousand" or so-----has an available range of paper reflection densities of about "1:100 or so" to successfully print it. If that doesn't throw the weight of the process squarely on control of the negative, I don't know what does. Of course it's opinion, but the photo is defined by the quality of the negative. It's the well controlled negative that permits the translation of----and forgive me----the "visualization" onto the paper. How many of us have had printing sessions that frustrate to no end? How many can truthfully say the paper was the problem?

    As far as latitude goes, narrow SBR, increased film latitude----high SBR, reduced film latitude, regardless of the film being used.

  4. #14
    markbarendt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Beaverton, OR, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    5,796
    Blog Entries
    3
    Images
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    Isn't this what the Dorst and Jones/"Windmill" diagrams show?

    The real problem is people think they can simply apply N-X development to a negative to "fit" the paper, and maintain N local contrast. This is a real problem with how people think about compensating development for example. There's this notion out there you can somehow compress total contrast in the negative without compressing local contrast. Lucky for them they don't get as much compensation as they think they do.
    It is what the windmills show but not how they show it, the windmills IMO are many times tough to follow and compare. They also tend to lead to a single best exposure wins conclusion rather than showing where latitude exists.

    Compensation brings up lots of questions like; if you're looking to use compensation wouldn't you want to peg exposure to make use of that? I.e. pegging to place those highlights for the print.

    No apology required either.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Ana´s Nin

  5. #15
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    1,221
    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    It is what the windmills show but not how they show it, the windmills IMO are many times tough to follow and compare. They also tend to lead to a single best exposure wins conclusion rather than showing where latitude exists.
    The tone reproduction diagram shows the original subject, camera image, negative characteristic curve, paper characteristic curve, and the reproduction curve. There's no place for latitude to hide.

    From your original post, it sounds like you are basically talking about the tone reproduction curve.

  6. #16
    markbarendt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Beaverton, OR, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    5,796
    Blog Entries
    3
    Images
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by AndreasT View Post
    I am coming more and more to the point of maybe just exposing normal and developing normal and doing the rest in the darkroom.
    That is an idea I settled on and began applying, along with incident metering, a while back. I am still refining the practice but "normal and incident" has made a marked improvement in my negatives and prints.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Ana´s Nin

  7. #17
    markbarendt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Beaverton, OR, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    5,796
    Blog Entries
    3
    Images
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Dougherty View Post
    This practice has done well for me, and by that I mean that I'm happy with the resulting prints. I'm wondering however, if what is actually happening is that which I've listed above or something else and it's just been working for me... Curiosity and a better understanding of my materials being the driver for my question.
    I wonder about my work too.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Ana´s Nin

  8. #18
    ic-racer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Midwest USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    6,380
    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    people expect what is caught on the negative to translate directly to paper.
    AA promoted that idea. It is an interesting concept, but the concept presents a major impediment to photography education.

  9. #19
    markbarendt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Beaverton, OR, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    5,796
    Blog Entries
    3
    Images
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by CPorter View Post
    Of course it's opinion, but the photo is defined by the quality of the negative. It's the well controlled negative that permits the translation of----and forgive me----the "visualization" onto the paper. How many of us have had printing sessions that frustrate to no end? How many can truthfully say the paper was the problem?
    I fully agree that good negative control, in both exposure and processing, is very helpful in getting good prints and that visualization is a personal opinion thing, something each of us need to define.

    For me that definition is typically and primarily founded on mid-tone contrast and pegged to print faces/portrait material properly, past that I don't necessarily care exactly where background subject matter lands. Instead I care about the background more in a general sense, as in creating a high key or low key setting.

    Others, such as those who enjoy the West Coast style, may have very different priorities.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Ana´s Nin

  10. #20
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    13,796
    Quote Originally Posted by AndreasT View Post
    I am coming more and more to the point of maybe just exposing normal and developing normal and doing the rest in the darkroom.
    Basically you broke the code. That have worked for me for decades.
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

Page 2 of 19 FirstFirst 1234567812 ... LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  Ś   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin