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  1. #21
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Benskin View Post
    The tone reproduction diagram shows the original subject, camera image, negative characteristic curve, paper characteristic curve, and the reproduction curve. There's no place for latitude to hide.

    From your original post, it sounds like you are basically talking about the tone reproduction curve.
    I'm not saying its hiding. I believe part of what I'm saying is that alternate subject matter placement on the negative isn't normally shown, nor would it be easy to do multiple film curves clearly, on a single windmill illustration.

    Also windmills seem to show only how "good" or "normal" or "tested EI" exposures fall. One may be out there somewhere but I can't remember seeing any windmill diagram where a negative's shoulder is shown having an effect on the print, instead the white point on the print normally seems to correspond to a point on the straight line of the negative.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Ana´s Nin

  2. #22

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    But if you have a known film curve and a known paper curve, can't you follow your subject through the tone reproduction diagrams with alternate placements? Or if you prefer the Dorst diagrams (the type Kodak used), same thing.
    Last edited by Michael R 1974; 04-16-2013 at 09:13 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: typo

  3. #23
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    You mean like this?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	4 quad - over exposure.jpg 
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  4. #24
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    But if you have a known film curve and a known paper curve, can't you can't you follow your subject through the tone reproduction diagrams with alternate placements? Or if you prefer the Dorst diagrams (the type Kodak used), same thing.
    Sure, I'm not saying it can't be done.

    I'm not trying to replace those objective tools with my subjective diagram. One thing I'm trying to illustrate is the concept of how various subject placement choices (or errors) on the negative might relate to the print.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Ana´s Nin

  5. #25

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    I'm still not quite following. You can use the tone reproduction diagrams as a model - play with subject placement choices and see what the outcome is. The Dorst plots seems similar to what you're trying to do visually (I think). Can you post an "end to end" example of what your illustration would look like? Maybe I'm just having trouble understanding what is going on in the original sketch.

  6. #26
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Benskin View Post
    You mean like this?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	4 quad - over exposure.jpg 
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    Very good getting the print off the toe, but still no noticeable shoulder on the negative that I see.

    The practical issues that illustrating the shoulder could demonstrate (or disprove) is 1- the effect of compensation and the EI needed to actually make use of it and 2- how much latitude a film has.

    My diagram is not meant to replace windmills, is meant show a simple linear "connection" of the scene to the paper and how the tones might cross the negatives curve.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Ana´s Nin

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    Very good getting the print off the toe, but still no noticeable shoulder on the negative that I see.
    You could include a "full" negative curve including the shoulder in the second quadrant and move the placements around. The examples we normally see in these diagrams are negative density ranges that fit quite well to the paper. But you could also start off with a much wider SBR and work your way through to show negative densities that would lie beyond the toe or shoulder of the given paper curve - in effect demonstrating that burning and dodging would be required. That sort of thing. Regarding compensation and development/compression techniques, this would simply change the negative curve (in fact you can demonstrate at least part of the effect with just the first two quadrants).
    Last edited by Michael R 1974; 04-16-2013 at 09:33 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #28
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    I'm still not quite following. You can use the tone reproduction diagrams as a model - play with subject placement choices and see what the outcome is. The Dorst plots seems similar to what you're trying to do visually (I think). Can you post an "end to end" example of what your illustration would look like? Maybe I'm just having trouble understanding what is going on in the original sketch.
    My intent is to visualize choosing a specific tone from the scene that carries through to a specific point on the print curve. That might be the subjects forehead at zone VI or whatever else.

    The various curves I've drawn simply show what varying camera settings might do and the problems they might pose. The "under" curve shows that shadow detail on the negative wont reach down to zone III in the print, the "over" curve won't reach up to zone zone VIII. The other two can get us nearly identical prints.

    Part of what I'm trying to illustrate is that zones tie the scene to the print, not to the negative. Where our chosen zones fall on film is a variable, not an absolute.
    Last edited by markbarendt; 04-16-2013 at 10:05 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Getting tired.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Ana´s Nin

  9. #29
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    I like the style of the sketch, a lot.

    You know "extra" and "over" can be pushed vertically to make good prints.

  10. #30
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    My intent is to visualize choosing a specific tone from the scene that carries through to a specific point on the print curve. That might be the subjects forehead at zone VI or whatever else.

    Part of what I'm trying to illustrate is that zones tie the scene to the print, not to the negative. Where our chosen zones fall on film is a variable, not an absolute.
    Like this?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Guideline Data - Example.jpg 
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ID:	67350

    I'm with Michael. I'm not sure what you are getting at. How is this different from a tone reproduction diagram?

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