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  1. #51
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Thanks PE.

    Michael you are correct, I'm trying to show end to end.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    Do you have a link or PDF you could share to the Kodak paper?
    I have given the reference of the kodak publcation in # 7 of this thread. The kodak publication is used frequently and reprinted, I think, in 1998. I prefer this approach because it is scientifically sound and therefore applicable to our current modern optics. Nethertheless,the writers still use simple language, avoiding MTF ideas, because the average photographer is not interested in that kind of language. No densitometers and that kind of stuff. Just use your eyes. I like this approach, an nunderstanding How films are produced, and how you can get a high quality negative. Beecause that is what counts, as already said in this thread.

    I do not know whhether there are PDF versions of th kodak publication,but I expect they can be found in libraries. If not, I could produce a PDF of my own paper version.

    Jed
    Last edited by Jed Freudenthal; 04-17-2013 at 01:46 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  3. #53
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Jed

    I googled with your reference from #7 but it didn't pop.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    Jed

    I googled with your reference from #7 but it didn't pop.
    You might look in the catalogue of the US libraries. It is a common kodak publication, even reprinted and sold as a book (but maybe under a different title).I could make a PDF, but my paper version is a xerox copy I got from the Kodak people at the same time I had lot of additional discussions at kodak on this ( and other) subjects. the print quality of the publication is not optimal.

    Jed

  5. #55
    Shawn Dougherty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed Freudenthal View Post
    You might look in the catalogue of the US libraries. It is a common kodak publication, even reprinted and sold as a book (but maybe under a different title).I could make a PDF, but my paper version is a xerox copy I got from the Kodak people at the same time I had lot of additional discussions at kodak on this ( and other) subjects. the print quality of the publication is not optimal.

    Jed
    I would be very interested in reading this. If anyone locates it please let us know where.
    Thanks for pointing it out, Jed.

  6. #56

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    I don't quite how to react to Jed's nonsensical assertion that the Zone System is appropriate for older
    lenses but not new. One tailors the System to the parameters at hand. That has always been the case.

  7. #57
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    Correct, they are not actual curves, as I said from the start, this is a rough illustration of an idea.

    If I pick a specific subject in a scene that I want to print as zone III on paper it is very possible because an underexposure to get a negative with no usable info for that subject, no detail just black. Its a demonstration of the classic advice we all get that with an underexposure detail is truly lost.

    With that same subject defining zone III the other three curves have zone III but at different densities.

    Defining or pegging print zones in my example is very much done as Adams might have, looking at a scene, deciding what range to pick and picking certain subject matter and saying I want that to fall in such and such zone.

    Printing the curves I labled as box and extra would require different enlarger exposures.

    The value I see in consistent negative density for a given zone is not addressed by my illustration. That is more a matter of working efficiently.
    Mark, I'm going to have to wait for more of your idea to come together. Something to keep in mind. Is the perspective derived from any graph worth the effort to graph it? Is it offering a unique insight not obtained by other, easier methods?

    On a completely different topic, I started working on having the Kodak tone reproduction scale as part of my program, but when I decided that a tone reproduction program didn't have an audience, I gave up on it. I think it visually conveys tone reproduction effectively, however, it isn't as effective in conveying specific information. I also have something like the Dorst diagram between the quadrants in the Zone System mode that's not quite finished. The example shows the original subject luminance (top) and the print reflection densities (bottom).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Stephen Benskin; 04-17-2013 at 07:08 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #58
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    The zone system is nothing more than crude densitometry.

    PE

  9. #59
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    The zone system is nothing more than crude densitometry.
    Ron, don't you mean crude sensitometry?

    Changing the subject again, I would like to go back to the idea of comparing overexposure examples. In the attachment, the data is from four tests. One with TX CI 0.56, exposed normally and overexposed. Printed for best print. The second two tests are with Del400, CI 0.57, also exposed normally and overexposed the same amount as the TX. The difference is that the DEL400 is beginning to shoulder off. The DEL400 is the film shown in Quad 2. The Gradient Guideline Comparison is set to show the resulting print RD. The two Guideline and Gradient Comparisons are a further breakdown Quad 3 results with the two Del400 tests. The use of the tone reproduction diagram gives me information that isn't obtainable from using the curves in isolation.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #60
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Crud densitometry or Crud sensitometry
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.



 

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