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  1. #71
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    I think this could make for a very interesting discussion some other time and in a different thread.

    Mark, that creative vs technical argument is the same one that people who find the Zone System too technical use against the Zone System, and I don't think you'd agree with them. It's simply a matter of degrees. Yes, ultimately it's about creativity and personal expression. I don't think anyone path to art is intrinsically better than another, however, if the intention is to communicate technical information to others, certain methods don't measure up as well as the more scientific ones. They are all just tools.
    Last edited by Stephen Benskin; 04-18-2013 at 09:53 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #72
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    My answer would be the quote from my boss "we sell pictures not curves". He meant that we got hard data via curves which were then compared to pictures so that we could optimize a product with some scientific basis.

    One of the basic methods is shown by Mees in his chart on "first acceptable print" compared to a sensitometric curve.

    Boo Hooooo, my EG&G Sensitometer failed last night.

    PE

  3. #73
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    My answer would be the quote from my boss "we sell pictures not curves". He meant that we got hard data via curves which were then compared to pictures so that we could optimize a product with some scientific basis.

    One of the basic methods is shown by Mees in his chart on "first acceptable print" compared to a sensitometric curve.

    Boo Hooooo, my EG&G Sensitometer failed last night.

    PE
    I understand how you feel. Once mine failed and I was gut-wrenched until I realized the plug had come out of the socket on my extension cord.

    Just so you know, this discussion has practical applications. I have a picture I am discussing on LFF that I can analyze in light of this discussion.

    I rated TMY-2 at EI 64 for this exposure, which places the negative well into the "Over" category. Because TMY-2 has a very long straight-line, I am still at least three stops camera exposure below the shoulder on the negative. Sensitometrically, this is a printable pictorial negative. This is why I say markbarendt could push the "Over" vertically on the print. That's what I did. But as I said before, the idea is interesting and the graphic simplicity still illustrates what might happen 5 stops over what I did (If I actually did hit the shoulder)... Or maybe homebrewed emulsion will shoulder easily.

    Just based on Stephen's recent preferred rendering chart I can see that my idea to reprint on Grade 3 might be valid. Grade 2, here, gives me preferred 0.28 for Zone VII (sky) and 0.11 for Zone VIII (Mammoth Mtn. in back, right) but too light rendering of 0.67 for Zone IV (Red Cone). So I will try printing on Grade 3 to bring down the Red Cone. I have a darker print where Red Cone looks great, is 1.09, and that is correct for Zone IV. In other words, this picture validates the chart and the chart is useful to suggest possible improvements to the picture.


  4. #74
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    But then, no matter what you do, you are limited visually to a density range of about 0.1 to 2.2. The data is there above 2.2, but you cannot see it without having a backlit print or by using a very high illumination for viewing.

    PE

  5. #75
    AndreasT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    My answer would be the quote from my boss "we sell pictures not curves". He meant that we got hard data via curves which were then compared to pictures so that we could optimize a product with some scientific basis.


    PE
    I just had to smile, didn't you guys say something on the line, "push the button we do the rest".

  6. #76
    Shawn Dougherty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed Freudenthal View Post
    This subject has been described in the Kodak Publication 'Kodak Professional Black and White Films, Negative Quality p. 2-7. second edition November 1976'. Later editions are available as well. The Kodak approach has a scientific base and is valid for modern high definition optics as well as older optics.

    Jed
    I did a rather extensive search online and couldn't find it... But I did find a copy on Amazon for .27 cents + $3.99 shipping so it's on the way. =)

  7. #77
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreasT View Post
    I just had to smile, didn't you guys say something on the line, "push the button we do the rest".
    And that is why we did so much R&D!

    PE

  8. #78

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    When I want to be technical I pull out the densitometer, make the curves, and file that in the back of
    my head. Out in the field everything has to be intuitive. A few spotmeters readings, often under shifting
    light conditions. No time for some calculator nonsense. No time to read Minor White's theories of religion or voodoo or whatever. No time to figure out what Ansel "really" meant. And yeah, I do have
    the characteristic curve in my head and how I plan to use it, and not some cardboard zone zombie.
    But then it's label the shot N, or N+, whatever.... good enough. Proper exposure, reasonably close development. If I'm doing something like color separations in the lab, then I get nitpicky. Developer temp within 1/10 degree on a thousand buck thermoregulator. Very precise monitoring of everything.
    All that gets silly in the field. And I generally expose TMY-2 at 400 just like the box says, because it
    has a nice steep toe and cleanly separates the shadows at least two "zones" below what Ansel taught,
    or rather the stereotype of what he allegedly taught. But I don't think the Rochester people ever
    particularly liked the guru "rocks and trees". I just do what works for me. I gave away all the AA how-to
    books. Someone else can make the barefoot pilgrimage to that shrine.

  9. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Dougherty View Post
    I did a rather extensive search online and couldn't find it... But I did find a copy on Amazon for .27 cents + $3.99 shipping so it's on the way. =)
    Shawn I suggest starting with these two publications. In the first one you can skip the film characteristics if you want. The second one gets into a little more detail specifically on sensitometry.

    http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploa...cs_of_Film.pdf

    http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploa...y_workbook.pdf

  10. #80
    CPorter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    ..........bastardizations..........
    I love that one, so true. Good observations I must say.



 

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