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  1. #11

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    You're doing this backwards. If you have problems w/ a limited shutter speed, you want to rate the film speed lower, not higher. Just shoot it at 100 and develop it normally. I do this all the time w/ Tri-X and it comes out fine. I use D76, or it's equivalent, but w/ Tri-X it will work w/ most any developer. A shutter speed of 1/250 will normally stop action. If you're really worried about motion blur, shoot it at 800. If you shoot it at 1600 w/ a two stop ND filter, you're right back to rating it at 400 w/o a filter. Maybe I'm missing something. When I shoot at the beach w/ a limited speed camera (1/500 generally is an actual 1/300 if you ck it), I rate the Tri-X w/ a yellow filter (one stop) at 200 and everything comes out fine.
    Last edited by momus; 04-21-2014 at 01:02 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    There is a problem when using the fastest shutter speed on any camera. Typically they are off by -20 to -40% from their marked value. This has nothing to due with the maker or quality of manufacture. it is solely a matter of physics.
    Wait, what? There's a physical principle that knows if your shutter is set to its highest speed?

    The GR1v has an electronic shutter, so I don't see why it would be subject to the high-speed issues of mechanical shutters. Modern electronic shutters routinely nail sub-1/1000 exposure times, and while this camera isn't the latest and greatest technology, I'm sort of inclined to call shenanigans on your generalization about "any camera". But perhaps you know something I don't about the limitations of electronic shutters?

    -NT
    Nathan Tenny
    San Diego, CA, USA

    The lady of the house has to be a pretty swell sort of person to put up with the annoyance of a photographer.
    -The Little Technical Library, _Developing, Printing, And Enlarging_

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny View Post
    Wait, what? There's a physical principle that knows if your shutter is set to its highest speed?
    Yes, it's called inertia. Shutter manufacturers must always make a compromise between robustness and accuracy. You can lower the mass of the shutter parts and thereby reduce inertia but only at a cost. The lighter parts are more subject to damage from use. Timing errors become more pronounced as speeds increase. I don't want to get into a long discussion on shutter design -- but in essence the highest shutter speed in not intended for use but its existence makes the next highest value more accurate. I know this sounds funny but it is an outcome of the designs. You design for the highest speed knowing that it will not be often used. A shutter may be electrically controlled but it is still a mechanical shutter and subject to mechanical law.

    Many years ago there was an attempt to make LCD shutters which would be essentially be free from inertia. The problem which could not be solved was that even when "closed" they still transmitted too much light to be useable. Even this shutter was not completely free from inertia since the liquid crystal molecules are still subject to inertia. The problems that shutter designers face is yet another example in photography of the principle of TANSTAAFL.
    Last edited by Gerald C Koch; 04-21-2014 at 02:17 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  4. #14

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    Eric,
    Consider bracketing your exposures and keep a record so you will know which settings work best for the next time you have similar lighting conditions at the beach. I have shot Delta 400 at 400 under many different lighting situations in the 120 format with maximum shutter speeds of 1/500th with and without filters developed in ID11 (D76) and have never really encountered unprintable negatives.

    http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

  5. #15
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    Shoot at 200, under-develop by 20 percent (time) and use Rodinal, which cuts speed by a half to a full stop.

    Probably a good way to do it anyway with all those harsh shadows; even if you had a faster top speed.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    Yes, it's called inertia. Shutter manufacturers must always make a compromise between robustness and accuracy. You can lower the mass of the shutter parts and thereby reduce inertia but only at a cost. The lighter parts are more subject to damage from use. Timing errors become more pronounced as speeds increase. I don't want to get into a long discussion on shutter design -- but in essence the highest shutter speed in not intended for use but its existence makes the next highest value more accurate. I know this sounds funny but it is an outcome of the designs. You design for the highest speed knowing that it will not be often used. A shutter may be electrically controlled but it is still a mechanical shutter and subject to mechanical law.

    Many years ago there was an attempt to make LCD shutters which would be essentially be free from inertia. The problem which could not be solved was that even when "closed" they still transmitted too much light to be useable. Even this shutter was not completely free from inertia since the liquid crystal molecules are still subject to inertia. The problems that shutter designers face is yet another example in photography of the principle of TANSTAAFL.
    That's an interesting comment. Can you refer us to empirical test results of the accuracy of shutter speed?

  7. #17

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    On leaf shutters, the center of the image is exposed longer than the edges because of the time needed for the blades to open. This affects the higher speeds more because the time opening/closing is a greater percentage of time.

    At 1/500 you may have an additional 1/2 stop exposure. Or more, depends on the shutter.

    Focal plane shutters don't have this added exposure because the shutter is a traveling slit

    In any case ISO tolerance on shutter speeds is pretty large.

    1/500 = 1.953ms with +/- 1.66-2.54ms being the range that's acceptable.

    1/60 = 15.62ms +/- 13.28-20.31ms

    1/8 = 125ms +/- 106.3-162.5ms

    1 sec = 1000ms +/- 850-1300ms
    Heavily sedated for your protection.

  8. #18
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    If you've heard of the "straight line section" of film curves, rating Tri-X at 200 or even 100 still places your beach exposure on the straight line - so you can use the same development time as normal.

    But since your normal is push processing, that's not what I mean by normal. momus has a good answer, shoot it as if you had 100 speed film in the camera, develop it normally - but not as you normally do - develop as if you had rated it at 400.

  9. #19

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    You are in Japan, get some Fuji Acros and Fuji Microfine developer. I really like the look, but to get grain with that combo, you will need to magnify a lot. Still, the tonality is very nice.

  10. #20

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    Focal plane shutters are also effected by inertia. BUT the problem areas in a curtain's travel are behind the frame mask and so do not effect exposure.
    Last edited by Gerald C Koch; 04-22-2014 at 01:20 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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