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  1. #11
    roteague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter Bradford
    The reference to which I most refer is Joe Cornish's First Light (different title in USA) and I know Robert loves this book too.
    Yes, indeed I do. I have studied this book over and over again, attempting to learn Joe's technique with split ND Grads. The book is titled "Light and the Art of Landscape Photography" here in the US. I even had it with me when I was in New Zealand last month (I visited Lindis Pass specifically because of an image in this book). And, I'm jealous that Baxter gets to take Joe Cornish workshops.
    Robert M. Teague
    www.visionlandscapes.com
    www.apug.org/forums/portfolios.php?u=2235

    "A man who works with his hands is a laborer; a man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman; a man who works with his hands and his brain and his heart is an artist" -- Louis Nizer

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter Bradford
    I I have subsequently been on several Joe Cornish workshops, some of which were held jointly with David Ward another LF and ND grad expert. Metering discussions can run for hours, hence my difficulty in trying to type it all down! The information from my first post essentially comes from these two experts. Joe uses the above figures for latitude, David agrees, but feels that the range is perhaps slightly wider.

    I suppose that it is a case of finding a method that best suits you and your way of thinking in the shortest space of time. Good luck you have to get cracking if you are to start next week!!!!!

    Thank you Baxter for all this helpful (and new to me) information and for your greetings re. next week shooting.

    I was wondering, where did you take these workshop? I often read about them but seems like they are all so far away it makes me wonder how effective are they- sounds like in this case they were exceptionally helpful. I will try however to start with the book. Thanks

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by roteague
    Yes, indeed I do. I have studied this book over and over again, attempting to learn Joe's technique with split ND Grads. The book is titled "Light and the Art of Landscape Photography" here in the US. I even had it with me when I was in New Zealand last month (I visited Lindis Pass specifically because of an image in this book). And, I'm jealous that Baxter gets to take Joe Cornish workshops.
    Thank you Robert, I'll try to get this book. In reply to your first question I live in Israel

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve simmons
    My use of the zone system for color is to allow me choices about each end of the scale. It is the spread between the important high and low values that i care about. The mid values will always fall inbetween. By knowing what that spread is, and by knowing what my film can handle, I can make choices. With transparency film you have to protect the high values, usually. By knowing the range of important values in the scene I can actually choose to protect either end of the scale if it exceeds that of the film. In theory, simply taking an incident reading may cause you to lose both ends if the scene is contrasty and at best you will not know the range of contrast in the scene simply by takng an overall average reading. If the range of the scene is less than what the film can andle you can slide the tones/color saturation, up and down the scale of the film according to the results you want to achieve. In color density means saturation.

    As to how much scale the film can handle this depends on the flm and requires testing by each individual for each ilm they want to use. I try and discourage people from joining the film of the month club - either black and white or color. Constantly switching films looking for the magic one simply means you will never learn how to use any of them. When I wrote the book many people were shooting outdoor scenes with tungsten film corrected for daylight. This film, used in this manner, had a long scale and could handle tones up to zone 8 if necessary. This is a less common practice now and I would suggest holding important high values at or below zone 7.5 but I strongly recommend testing and selecting one film to work with.

    steve simmons
    www.viewcamera.com
    Thank you Steve for expanding on this issue. After reading your book I have started to experiment ( a lot) with black and white films which was one of the best experiences I have had recently. The topic you have expanded upon here came out quite clear in the book too but after the wonderful experience with the B&W I was wondering how can I repeat it in color. I plan to experiment and with your info and others as well I think I have enough to get started.

    What a treat it is to have you respond here!!! Thank you so much

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by c6h6o3
    Here's what I do:

    1) Filter outside with an 85B.
    2) Place the darkest shadow on Zone III.
    3) Normal then falls on Zone VIII.
    4) For every zone of minus development, add 1/2 stop of exposure. Don't pull more than two stops.
    5) You can expand up to two stops in development. If the highlights fall on Zone VI, go ahead and take the picture.

    I tell my lab to either push or pull up to two stops in the first developer only. When the lab said they couldn't do that I went to a better lab.
    else.
    Thanks - sounds like its worth trying indeed though there is a part I am not sure I understand. In line 2 you say "normal fall on zone VIII" is that what you meant? I would think you have meant highlight fall on zone VIII but even that is something that doesn't happen automatically... or is the idea same as B&W where instead of adding or subtracting time in the developer you do it in first developer at the lab?

  6. #16
    Baxter Bradford's Avatar
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    Hi Ruvy

    The courses which I have attended have all been run by http://www.lightandland.co.uk/ a company owned by Charlie Waite. Based in the UK they offer courses in many parts of the world as can be seen from their website. They have a global customer base. In Tuscany this May, a lady came from Hong Kong, another from Holland, a gent from Texas. In Cornwall we had people from Denmark and Eire. The circle is starting to close as I have been asked to lead a course for them in 2006 to the Jurassic Coastline of Dorset. I am not employed by them and have stayed loyal because I feel they are quality lead, which I appreciate. The downside is that they are not cheap either. They have an extensive range of courses available on teh website and I undersatnd from talking to David Ward yesterday that some are already full, before the 2006 brochure has come out!

    In addition to the L+L courses, Joe Cornish also runs workshops from his website www.joecornish.com and also through the Centre at Inversnaid in Scotland.


    There are obviously many holiday companies, but should you choose to go this route at some stage, perhaps you should look to attend a course with a tutor familiar with LF, filtration and metering (but don't see that it has to be a dedicated LF course) to get the most from it in your current quest.

    Another LF guy is Tom Mackie an American based in Norfolk (UK) of whom I have heard positive reports.

    Have fun!

  7. #17
    c6h6o3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruvy
    Thanks - sounds like its worth trying indeed though there is a part I am not sure I understand. In line 2 you say "normal fall on zone VIII" is that what you meant? I would think you have meant highlight fall on zone VIII but even that is something that doesn't happen automatically... or is the idea same as B&W where instead of adding or subtracting time in the developer you do it in first developer at the lab?
    You place the shadows and see where the highlights fall for that placement. If they fall on Zone VIII, that's a normal negative. If the brightest highlight falls on Zone VII, tell the lab to push one stop. If the brightest highlight falls on Zone IX, add 1/2 stop exposure (if you don't do this your shadows will go green) and tell the lab to pull one stop. Capice?

  8. #18
    roteague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruvy
    Thank you Robert, I'll try to get this book. In reply to your first question I live in Israel
    You may also look for a book published by RotoVision titled "The World's Top Photographers: Landscape" by Terry Hope. Published in the UK I believe.

    Since you are in Israel, you might consider Robert White UK as a good source for buying Lee filters. As does Baxter, I use Split ND filters to control the contrast range of my images. At minium, I suggest you would need a holder, .3, .6 and .4 hard grads, along with 81A and 81B filters (for landscapes).
    Robert M. Teague
    www.visionlandscapes.com
    www.apug.org/forums/portfolios.php?u=2235

    "A man who works with his hands is a laborer; a man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman; a man who works with his hands and his brain and his heart is an artist" -- Louis Nizer

  9. #19

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    Just to demonstrate that there are many ways to separate a feline from its wrapping, here's my method of using the ND grads I have. I use it most of the time, but there are several situations in which I follow Baxter's method.

    I prefer to use incident metering for my trannies when I can because it is quick and rarely wrong. However, it doesn't account for subject brightness range. So I cheat and use both methods.

    I set my incident meter to read in EV mode, take a suitable reading and note the EV required for my main subject. That forms my base exposure for the scene.

    I switch to spot meter mode (still reading in EV) and measure the parts of the scene I suspect might exceed the upper limit of my contrast range. If they are more than two EV above my base exposure, I make the appropriate choices from my selection of filters.

    For instance, if I want the sky to be only one stop brighter than my main subject, and it reads as three stops brighter, I select my two stop filter to pull it back.

    I know there will be those asking why I don't just use the spot meter to assess the base exposure. My answer is that incident metering is quicker and often more accurate: when the light is quickly changing on my scenery, I need to be ahead of it. When conditions dictate the use of a spot meter (or more correctly, dictate against incident metering) I will use it and do a more "conventional" spot meter and "zone system" assessment.

    Cheers,
    Graeme Hird
    www.scenebyhird.com

    Failure is NOT an option! It comes bundled with your software ....

  10. #20
    roteague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graeme Hird
    Just to demonstrate that there are many ways to separate a feline from its wrapping, ...
    I have to admit that sometimes, I will use my Nikon F5's built in meter. But, I prefer to use a spot meter, I see using the Nikon as more of a crutch. I meter by looking for what I consider to be an 18% grey within the main subject area, then looking for highs and lows and then use the filters to balance the scene - although not trying to make the entire scene simulate a flat scene.
    Robert M. Teague
    www.visionlandscapes.com
    www.apug.org/forums/portfolios.php?u=2235

    "A man who works with his hands is a laborer; a man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman; a man who works with his hands and his brain and his heart is an artist" -- Louis Nizer

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