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  1. #11
    jd callow's Avatar
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    I've had luck doing this, but I'm not married to reality. Pulling some films works better than others.

    I was PM'd about this topic. The thoughts of this person whose knowledge exceeds mine was that it is the job of the film to bring the 10 or 15 stop world to the 5-6 stop paper.

    Meaning use the right film and you should be good.

    *

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helen B
    I hesitate to ask this question, but what are you going to do with the film after it has been developed? This has quite an important bearing on the choice of film, and what the usable 'contrast' of it is. I find that Kodak Ultra 100 has about the longest scale, with the comparatively new Fuji Pro 160S (replacement for NPS) being similar.

    [COLOR=DarkGreen]thanks Helen, I intend to scan but eventually it will end up as print. I think you have a point there about usable contrast, ie not printable entire range. But it does give me more latitude in post processing[/COLOR]


    Overexposure helps with colour neg, because a lot of colour neg films show a gentle contrast reduction before hitting their effective shoulder.

    There is a low contrast Kodak motion picture stock that is very tempting, if only it didn't need special development to get rid of the rem-jet: 5299 Vision2 HD. It has a comfortable fourteen stops of range.

    If you follow the link in my signature you should see a number of examples of Ultra 100. I haven't put a lot of Pro 160S stuff up yet.

    Best,
    Helen

    [COLOR=DarkGreen]I do have some difficulties sorting out which image is from which film in your gallery, could you point out a few that are on NPS/pro 160[/COLOR]

  3. #13
    Helen B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxim
    [COLOR=DarkGreen]I do have some difficulties sorting out which image is from which film in your gallery, could you point out a few that are on NPS/pro 160[/COLOR]
    Ah, yes. Oops. Fewer than I thought - in fact none yet*. I'd forgotten when I switched from 100UC to Pro 160S in relation to where I am up to in posting my recent snaps. I had an archival interlude. I'll try to add some Pro 160S in the next day or two.

    I'm also not aware of any colour paper that will translate the 14 stops (or 12 or 13 or 15) recorded by a film to print image without fancy work such as contrast masking or flashing or fiendish devilry like digital processing, but I'd like to learn of one. It would look awfully flat with most scenes.

    Here are a couple of examples of films printed onto Portra Endura paper - one of the lower contrast papers. First 100UC. This is an example of the difference between the capacity of the film to record a wide scene brightness range, and the translation to a print. The 100UC curve shows an exposure difference (delta log H) of around 3.5 from the toe to the shoulder, or almost 12 stops. In practice it carries on a little above the displayed curve, I find. This is a sensitometric reading, with a real lens the scene brightness range could be higher.

    If you print that onto Portra Endura, forgetting about flare, and using a negative density difference of 1.0 as the benchmark, the density range of the paper reflects a log exposure difference of between approx. 1.5 and 1.8, ie 5 to 6 stops. This is just a rough example for comparison purposes. Notice that you can choose which section of the film characteristic curve you use - you are choosing 5 or 6 stops out of a possible 12. Using the toe or the 'shoulder' gives you a slight extra range, though using the toe gets a bit messy.

    The next post will be the same curves for Pro 160S. The Pro 160S characteristic curve actually shows less range than the 100UC - delta log H of 3.0 instead of 3.5 (but it also continues a little). However, if you translate the film characteristic onto the print characteristic you get a wider usable exposure difference - up to about 7 stops. Real world scene brightness range translated to the print can be higher than this, of course.

    So, with an all-optical process Pro 160S is the lower contrast film. With digital devilry, the 100UC can have a slightly, but not significantly, lower contrast, and a slightly, but not significantly, greater useable ability to record a wide scene brighness range for translation to a print.

    Enough for the moment. This example is just an example, it is not a rigorous treatment, and I hope that my simplifications and sloppy words do not cloud the issue too much.

    Best,
    Helen
    PS I've used the blue curve for clarity.

    *Two Pro 160S snaps of dead roses now added to 'Garden Notebooks': #15 and #16
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100uc_bot.png   100uc_mid.png   100uc_top.png  
    Last edited by Helen B; 02-06-2006 at 10:36 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #14
    Helen B's Avatar
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    Here are the curves for Pro 160S.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 160s_bot.png   160s_mid.png   160s_top.png  

  5. #15

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    Helen you are such a treasure. Tell me about your archival interlude. Was It fun? How long will the memory last? Was it like a summi lux?
    Claire (Ms Anne Thrope is in the darkroom)

  6. #16
    Helen B's Avatar
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    It was a senior moment. I dreamed that I found these 1970's B&W pictures of upright Sunday Geordie men in suits and ties and determined Geordie women in headscarves enjoying the bracing North Sea air. I knew that it was a dream because they were all in focus, unlike me at the time.

    Best,
    Helen

  7. #17
    Struan Gray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helen B
    I dreamed that I found these 1970's B&W pictures of upright Sunday Geordie men in suits and ties and determined Geordie women in headscarves enjoying the bracing North Sea air.
    http://www.amber-online.com/gallery/...age10-921.html

    One finesse on the low-contrast story. If you are going to print via a digital step some films can quite radically change their saturation when scanned. My catch-all - Portra NC - is as flat as expected when printed conventionally, but ends up looking like a Manga comic if scanned carelessly.

    OK. I konw. A-PUG. So shoot me.

  8. #18

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    *bang*

    While not based on hard numbers, I've shot Portra 160NC at the beach, and managed to get more than acceptable details in both shadowed rocks (every barnacle is clean) and bright, damp, sand. Translating that to a good print is work, but everything is there. I'm looking at the new Fuji 160S for next order of MF film, but given my current environment (overcast mud), there isn't much point for another month or so.

    Regrettably, this is a case where you can stare at curves all day, but you should really take a couple of rolls of current stock out to an approximation of your final scene, and expose them. You'll find out about strange color shifts, transitions, etc, that way.

  9. #19
    Helen B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fparnold
    *bang*

    While not based on hard numbers, I've shot Portra 160NC at the beach, and managed to get more than acceptable details in both shadowed rocks (every barnacle is clean) and bright, damp, sand. Translating that to a good print is work, but everything is there. I'm looking at the new Fuji 160S for next order of MF film, but given my current environment (overcast mud), there isn't much point for another month or so.

    Regrettably, this is a case where you can stare at curves all day, but you should really take a couple of rolls of current stock out to an approximation of your final scene, and expose them. You'll find out about strange color shifts, transitions, etc, that way.
    I'm not sure whether or not that comment was aimed at me, but my use of curves was simply to illustrate a point graphically instead of with a few thousand words. Those of us who look at curves probably also shoot more than 'a couple of rolls' of a film to try it. You can learn a lot by looking at curves, and it doesn't detract one iota from what you learn by using the film.

    Best,
    Helen

  10. #20

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    Dear Helen, How should I read these curves? I know the flatter the less contrast but I am not really sure of the reason... Ohh I am such a noob at times just watching what works and forgetting everything else but you end up inventing the same things over and over again when you don't really understand what is happening.

    cheers!

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