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Go Back   APUG > APUG English Forums > General Discussion > Exposure Discussion > contrast range in zone system

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Old 06-23-2008, 10:05 AM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default contrast range in zone system

I just read "The zone system for 35mm photographers" and I am not clear about something.

If I have a scene with an exaggerated contrast range (too high/too low) what is the course of action that I need to take?

So let's say, for the sake of example, I am taking a picture with shadows and highlights (as opposed to uniform lighting) under a regular contrast range (5 zones between the darkest shadow and the brightest highlight if I remember correctly).

I have the choice to put object X in zone Y, and I will have to live with that choice (in 135/120 format) or make a note on the film holder and develop accordingly (large format).

Now let's put contrast range to 10 zones, or 2 zones.

What are my options then?

I appreciate any input..

piero
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Old 06-23-2008, 10:59 AM   #2 (permalink)
 
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For really large subject brightness ranges, you would usually need to increase exposure for shadow detail, and decrease development time to stop the highlights from blocking up. For roll film shots where there are varying degrees of subject brightness ranges on one roll, it's a compromise. You are probably better off doing an N-1 exposure/dev combination, and using VC paper to make up ground with any thinner negs. OR, use pyrocat HD or MC developer, and rate the film at one stop slower, and be done with it. I have never had ANY problems with highlights blocking up with any of Sandy King's Pyrocat developers.
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:37 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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If you are going to expose a roll of film where the subjects are of greatly varying brightness ranges with some extreme brightness ranges, then using a compensating developer will help a lot. It will have little effect on normal range subjects but where you have extreme brightness range, it will pull the hightlights down to manageable printing levels.

This is why I beleive the likes of Barry Thornton, and many before him, went to great lengths making developers which did this. They developed films from clients with wildly varying brightness ranges and less than perfect exposure. A developer which stops extreme highlights from blocking up is ideal for this.

Once you have normal film speed and dev worked out for film dev combination, then you expose and develop as nomal.

For an image with only 2 stop range, then you would need very high contrast film and appropriate developer. Normal film wouldn't do it combined with normal range exposures. But then a 2 stop range is a specialist subject and you wouldn't try and photograph it on the same roll as some normal exposures would you. Or would you? Don't.
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:58 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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see this thread which is currently running and is discussing two bath (compensating) developers.

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/5...t-queries.html
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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What cameras are you shooting with?

You mention 120 so I am curious if you are using a camera with removable film backs.

If so, you might try this (you'll need 3 backs):
one film back loaded with film to be developed N-1
one film back loaded with film to be developed N
one film back loaded with film to be developed N+1

I am not a fan of this method but it sure does work.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:56 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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One word of caution with these compensating developers. They do pull the highlights back but what this is actually doing is reducing contrast in the mid to high values. That might be great for making it print but at the same time it can kill the highlight contrast leaving the highlights looking very flat.

Don't make the mistake of believing that just because your negative range fits the paper, that you will automatically get really good prints with the right contrast.
You should be taking the approach of photographing in the right lighting conditions to get the look you want. If the lighting is wrong then your images may be less than desired. Messing with development will only fix that to a point.
And if its the high values that really important in the image, which they often are, then expose for the high values and forget the shadows. They will go where they go.
IMO too much is made of preserving the shadows when in reality it is the mid and high values which really make the print. Blocked up shadows can actually make the mid and high values jump out even more. But that is just my subjective opinion of some images. Preserve shadow separation if you can, but not at the expense of ruining highlight contrast.
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Old 06-23-2008, 06:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob champagne View Post
One word of caution with these compensating developers. They do pull the highlights back but what this is actually doing is reducing contrast in the mid to high values. That might be great for making it print but at the same time it can kill the highlight contrast leaving the highlights looking very flat...
I will apply the advice about shadows and highlights.

I don't think I will use 2 bath devs (I haven't visited the thread yet) since I usually "think up" the photograph while I am shooting in terms of zones and make the necessary compromises then and there (choose where to put the most detail, or maybe go for max contrast, or seek flare etc, I mean), if I want average results then I shoot digital.

Thank you for the advice.

Last edited by pierods; 06-23-2008 at 06:57 PM. Reason: added detail
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:06 PM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david b View Post
What cameras are you shooting with?

You mention 120 so I am curious if you are using a camera with removable film backs.

If so, you might try this (you'll need 3 backs):
one film back loaded with film to be developed N-1
one film back loaded with film to be developed N
one film back loaded with film to be developed N+1

I am not a fan of this method but it sure does work.
F80 (N80 in the states).

I cited 120 format for the sake of the example.

Even if I shot 120, I don't think I would apply that method, because I only shoot b/w with film, and b/w film has got such a range that having 3 backs (for that purpose) looks overkill to me.

As far as color is concerned, I do either slides, so you have to expose exactly, no tweaking, or digital, which has about the same dynamic range than color negative film, which in my opinion is largely obsolete these days.

Actually I have a question about color film, how did they get those crazy saturated colors in the '80s, but I should start a separate thread.

Thanks for your answer.
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:48 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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When you get a wide SBR in your subject area (seven stops or more) you really have to decide what is expendable and expose around the vital components of your subject. If you can live with a little black in the back of the shadow areas, are the highlights small and insignificant enough to block out? For low contrast subjects I either increase exposure if I want it flat or decrease exposure for increased contrast.
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Old 06-24-2008, 12:27 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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There are times when a compensating dev can be useful. For example, an indoor shot where you have a window onto a garden. Obviously the lighting for indoor and outdoors will be different and each would require a different exposure. Exposing for the indoor lighting and using a compensating developer can bring some detail into what is seen through the window.
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