Visible detail and texture in a print is tied to tone. Zone III and zone VII are usually the last zones that show true detail...and they by no means look black or white. Zones II and VIII usually show texture, but no true detail. This is what you are seeing in those zone II areas. You could see that there was what looked like text on a page, but you could not read it. They do not look pure black or white either, but getting there. Zones I and IX pretty much look black and white, but not *quite*. They show no detail or texture, just a bit of tone. Zone 0 is as black as your paper can get, and zone X is how it looks when it has been developed after receiving no exposure.
There are 21 "zones" in a modern film, each one of which is spaced 0.15 (1/2 stop) apart. The zone system as we practice it here and as we discuss it, limits us to 7 zones out of the 21 possible zones.
So, the 7 zones we use are actually a sliding scale that can be moved up and down the film scale based on how straight the line of the films characteristic curve actually is. And the reason for 7 is that the average print can only print 7 due to the limits of the reflective material.
If I may add one more thing to the discussion relating to 2F/2F's statement:
Quote:
It is a highly subjective artistic tool that lets you craft the negative that will allow you to most easily make the print you envision.
A tremendous eye opener for me was AA's book "Examples." Seeing his 'straight prints' before any printing manipulation many of them look pretty flat and boring. I never realized the extent of his printing interpretation until I read that book. I don't think he made any final 'straight' prints from any of his negatives.
Tim, reading all you wrote here, I think you are mistaken zones 2 and 3, and zones 7 and 8. So, here are some basics, with emphasis on what I think are your confusions:
On a normal contrast light (5 stops between the full detailed shadows and highlights in the real scene):
- zones 3 and 7 show full detail in the negative as in the print,
- zones 2 and 8 show average detail in the negative and low detail in the print (but some detail is still there!),
- zones 1 and 9 show low detail in the negative and black and white in the print,
- while zones 0 and 10 show black and white in the negative too.
Films read from 0 to 10, while papers read only from 1 to 9.
Now, how to guess where to look for the full detail in shadow and highlights? You should first distinguish between normal, lower, low, higher, and high contrast with your naked eyes, without a light meter. Only after that, you'll be able to chose what readings to take, to compare them, to visualize the scene, and finally chose what to place in the zones 3 and 7 (not 8). While enlarging, you can flash the paper to increase the detail in zone 8, if this is what you want or need. These recommendations do not apply to portraiture, of course.
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For me B&W is film and color is digital. But later I’m doing almost exclusively B&W.
Thank you everybody- all of these posts have been very helpful. I have a much better idea on how I should be visualizing a scene with zone placements. Sean- I will look for that book- it sounds very helpful. 2F/2F and Phenix- your posts have verified in my mind what I'm finding, and where I was failing to visualize before. PE: I was going to do a large scale of what you suggest by placing a grey card in a scene, put a piece of white paper in the bright sun, and a black matt in deep shadow- I just have to wait for it to stop raining...
Tim
__________________ If only we could pull out our brains and use only our eyes. P. Picasso
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Zone system assume you test your film, developer, .... Witout that ZS will not work as it is suppose to.
PS There are 21 "zones" in a modern film, each one of which is spaced 0.15 (1/2 stop) apart. The zone system as we practice it here and as we discuss it, limits us to 7 zones out of the 21 possible zones.
So, the 7 zones we use are actually a sliding scale that can be moved up and down the film scale based on how straight the line of the films characteristic curve actually is. And the reason for 7 is that the average print can only print 7 due to the limits of the reflective material.
Black Satin 2.25 reflectance
4.5
9
18 average
36
72
95 White paper
This means 2.5 zone (0.3 log) above 18% and 3 zone below 18% (toward darks on the print). Summ=5.5 zonne in total
Daniel, I must object, slightly. When you refer to seven zones it almost seems as though you mean to refer to steps in a range of subject luminances. The range of luminances in a subject may have a limit but it could well be greater than 21 stops. You say that the Zone System as we practice it restricts us to seven (II thru VIII) of 21 zones. But you refer to half stops of exposure. By my math that enables us to use 13 half-zones (II, II 1/2, III, III 1/2, IV, IV 1/2, V, V 1/2, VI, VI1/2, VII, VII 1/2, VIII), 15 if you include I 1/2 and VIII 1/2 which may yield differentiating testure to some degree.
Daniel, two neighbor zones are separated by 1 stop, not 1/3 of a stop. Although, why only 21 zones? Grays you can have on a continuous (notice, infinity) scale in analog. Only in digital you are limited by the number of bits.
In fact, there is a huge confusion about the zone system: it concerns grays only if you shoot a gray card or if you do portraits. Otherwise, it concerns details (not grays): you see or you don’t see full or partial details in shadows and in highlights (in negative, than in print, not in the real scene).
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For me B&W is film and color is digital. But later I’m doing almost exclusively B&W.
Linear Mode
