I think some are born to it, and use it, others never realise they had it, some think they do but don't have it, and some don't have it but through hard work, get close enough in the end. For me this is the debate of passion. If you want something badly enough, you can always excel at it, you just have to want it badly enough. So yes, I believe you can learn to see. Many who naturally see, never have enough passion to pick up a camera. K
When we are babies (well, once our vision has settled), and for a short time after that, we can see. And we do. We examine everything. As time goes by we see less and less, until finally, we hardly see anything. We think we see, but really all we are is conditioned to is remember things, triggered cues from our eyes. When something, such as photography, helps us see again, that is a good thing.
I do not like extensive quotes ... but, occasionally something is written that DESERVES to be repeated in full.
When my youngest daughter was *very* young, she began to "see" rocks. Small, common stones. Each day she would excitedly display her newest finds. Breathlessly, "Look at the pretty yellow swirls in this one!! - And the sparkles in this one!!". Each day was filled with marvelous discovery of, what she perceived as, treasure.
Her bedroom was filled with thousands of "precious" stones.
Over the period of her maturation, her perception changed. I hope it was not as a result of anything her parents did, but, so many would have tried to do exactly that; with the justification of, "She has to learn what`reality' is."
Easily, Society would have had a major influence .. her friends convincing her that, "These are only worthless rocks. Look how many there are, all around us. Worthless ...".
What I fight with now is not "Learning What Is Beautiful". It is "UNlearning What I Have Been Taught is NOT Beautiful". I think MOST of us ... an overwhelming majority ... suffer from a pernicious social brainwashing, corrupting what is inherently a miraculous, vital, human-being defining "sense." We no longer ... we find it difficult ... to see those woundrous rocks with the the green swirls.
When I encounter "Primitive Art", at times I am fascinated. It usually is "all wrong" when it coms to perspective, technique, "rules of composition: ... And yet, there are times when the lack of conformance to social convention can override all this ... and a work DOES appear to me to be "beautiful."
Can we be taught to conform to convention. Sure! No real problem. We can be taught technique, we can even learn the factors that lead everyone else to label a work as "fine art".
Can we be taught "What is Beautiful"?
Simply, NO. We ALL have that knowledge. In most of us, it is wrapped, LOCKED in layers of brainwashing propaganda.
Now, to find the paring knife to peel back those layers...
Ed, those are interesting points that you and JBrunner make, and they fit my observation that the most successful photographers and scientists I know do maintain a childlike curiosity and willingness to adapt and explore as if every scene were being seen for the first time.
However! In response to some of what you implied about education, Ed, I'll just say that I think a good education develops critical thinking skills; it does not place limits on originality nor on that fundamental, childlike curiosity. There are as many different ways to educate a student as there are ways students learn, and while I agree that some of them amount to rote indoctrination, there are some ways to really help students to think in original ways.
This reminds me of Zen in the Art of Archery, which I encountered whilst reading about Minor White's unconventional teaching methods, which were said to confuse, confound but also sometimes delight his students. The book details a German professor's frustrations with (and eventual acceptance of) a unique style of learning that he'd never experienced, in which the instructor is reluctant to influence the student's experience of learning. Quite interesting little book.
...the most successful photographers and scientists I know do maintain a childlike curiosity and willingness to adapt and explore...
However! In response to some of what you implied about education, Ed, I'll just say that I think a good education develops critical thinking skills...
Keith,
What you say about childlike curiosity is quite true, and I don't disagree with the second paragraph, either. However I have some caveats; when you say "good education" I have to wonder. Where is this "good education" to be found? I take it you teach, but I don't know where or what your circumstances are. I'm at the end of a long career, and I have watched the quality of education deteriorate at an alarming rate. Most education seems now to be directed toward providing the workers with adequate skills so that they can do their jobs. Very heartbreaking, and it's getting worse.
Critical thinking: Here's the "official" definition of critical thinking that is adopted at my institution, which prides itself on being one of the best in the country (I think it is generally pretty good, but that may be a somewhat generous claim):
"Definition: The ability to think critically about the nature of knowledge within a discipline and about the ways in which that knowledge is constructed and validated and to be sensitive to the ways these processes often vary among disciplines."
I have a problem with this definition. First, it is narrowed to apply only to "disciplines" and does not require an observational platform that is superior to the entire context, and second, it is limited to the "nature of knowledge within a discipline...". That suggests that if the discipline is, for (a metaphorical) example, Germany under Hitler, killing Jews is consistent with the "nature of knowledge" and therefore would be seen as the right thing to do. Lots of people would think otherwise. Critical thinking would permit one to understand that a whole discipline could be flawed. CT must be outside the context in which the reasoning is practiced, and to whatever extent possible, must even consider the observer.
Ed's on to something pretty good, too. I do think it is important to be somewhat careful in condemning as brainwashing what is done with the best of intentions and is, in fact, necessary. It is essential, as any parent knows, to provide the child with the codes that will enable him/her to function within the context of the society (acceptable values and behaviors), and these codes in themselves constitute the box in which we confine ourselves. Is it brainwashing? Of course it is. My psychologist wife has told me that Erickson's theories verify what I know from life experience; that we are all brainwashed, we must be brainwashed, and that to escape that brainwashing, we must be brainwashed in another way. It is the inevitable consequence of not being as omniscient and omnipotent as we would like to see ourselves. We are subjective, and, being so, are locked into limited perspectives.
As for MW's methods, he was very controversial. I believe that was a result of his persistent subversion of conventional perspectives, which is what I think you are getting at. He was pretty good at shaking things up. That is, he got people to at least attempt to see themselves in context; critical thinking, right? Was he able to do that for himself in his own life? We all have our limits and in the end, even the great are human. Herrigel, the author you mention, wrote a pretty wonderful book, but one must wonder at his returning to Germany and joining the Nazi Party. Critical thinking?
Ed's on to something pretty good, too. I do think it is important to be somewhat careful in condemning as brainwashing what is done with the best of intentions ...
... The road to hell ...
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... and is, in fact, necessary. It is essential, as any parent knows, to provide the child with the codes that will enable him/her to function within the context of the society (acceptable values and behaviors), and these codes in themselves constitute the box in which we confine ourselves.
I understand your point. Of course "reality testing" and an awareness of the social constructs are, if not necessary, certainly useful in making our way through the world ... but...
I will argue that an appreciation of that which is NOT understandable (see definition: Esthetics) is also of great importance.
What I am suggesting is NOT the domination of either a sense of reality OVER that of esthetics, or vice versa; but a cultivation of BOTH.
From my observations (mainly of myself!!), it is very difficult, and rare, that any of us survive into adulthood without major damage and surpression of our "childlike wonder".
Education is a wonderful thing! However, most of what we are taught now comes limited to certain boundaries. What we need are those who can modify our concepts of "proper limits". What would really work would be to ride along with Ansel Adams, or Edward Weston, not to learn their techniques, but to try to assimilate whatever it was in their psyches that triggered the impetus to take their next photograph.
Another great way to "restore" would be to again listen to Minor White, talking about everything EXCEPT photography. No one who worked with him could link what he was saying to photography; yet, over the course of time, their work changed...
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Erickson's theories verify what I know from life experience; that we are all brainwashed, we must be brainwashed, and that to escape that brainwashing, we must be brainwashed in another way. It is the inevitable consequence of not being as omniscient and omnipotent as we would like to see ourselves. We are subjective, and, being so, are locked into limited perspectives.
I am superficially familiar with Dr. Erickson's work. He is greatly underappreciated.
__________________
Carpe erratum!!
Ed Sukach, FFP.
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Uh oh, please keep hitler out of it, that whole subject has a way of inflaming opinions. Regarding Herrigel, I merely find his take on zen interesting and fairly amusing. In the book, Herrigel comes across, in my opinion, as a person so completely trained to be trained that when his archery instructor won't provide explicit directions, he becomes frustrated. In fact, for years he is frustrated. Herrigel truly cannot fathom that anyone can learn to be satisfied with the craft through their own experience and exploration - he initially expects someone to tell him what he's doing right or wrong. The reluctance of the instructor to steer him explicitly is the whole message of the book, at least the way I read it. That message of the book goes in the complete opposite direction of indoctrination, even if it is merely an expression of Herrigel's inability to understand that. Whether Herrigel truly learned and internalized that lesson or not, I cannot say; all I know is what he wrote in that little book. You decide. If he became a nazi then apparently the answer is no, he defaulted back to an engrained need to be told how to think.
Anyway, yes, I do teach, and I teach how to question what one is taught and how to find one's own answers. I do intentionally lay out a path for my students that will require them to do some mental musclework to arrive at answers that are satisfying and can be tested. I place a lot more emphasis in my classes on thought process than arriving at whatever answer I have in mind. I do not try to teach "facts and figures" as much as how to find them and how to test and prove them.
And yes, I do think that few people in academia spend enough time learning how to teach, and very few actually enjoy teaching.
How would this work for photography (which I also have taught)? Well I think that first and foremost people need to understand the history of the field and how it came to be what it is today. Second, I think the basic techniques should be so thoroughly mastered as to leave the student unencumbered. But these things can be done through a student's own exploration and not rammed down the throat.
I am in a field where for too long the approach has been to teach solutions before students have an interest in the problems; I do spend a fair amount of time on motivating critical thought.
I think photographers see differently to most folks because of a process of intense looking.
Beyond merely identifying things in the visible environment and classifying them as threatening, edible, harmless, etc photographers find connections, parallels, and significances. A near equivalent is a poet's use of simile, metaphor, synecdoche, and metonymy.
This happens a lot to me; maybe it happens to you too. The 8x10 camera is set up and the scene is great: brilliant trees and reflections, an apocalyptic sky, leading lines everywhere, rivers of tonal gradations and then the kibitzer arrives.
"What are you photographing?" is the usual question. Quite often, even after detailing the scene for them and even giving them a look at the ground-glass (geez, it's upside down and in colour!) they still can't SEE what is worth a sheet of 8x10.
It's not that kibitzers are stupid. Their priorities are different: pay off the house, keep the car running, get the kids through school, that sort of thing. But when it comes to seeing, really seeing, photographers are unmatched by anyone else in the visual arts.
__________________ Photography, the word itself, invented and defined by its author Sir John.F.W.Herschel, 14 March 1839 at the Royal Society, Somerset House, London. Quote "...Photography or the application of the Chemical rays of light to the purpose of pictorial representation,..". unquote.
Anyway, yes, I do teach, and I teach how to question what one is taught and how to find one's own answers. I do intentionally lay out a path for my students that will require them to do some mental musclework to arrive at answers that are satisfying and can be tested. I place a lot more emphasis in my classes on thought process than arriving at whatever answer I have in mind. I do not try to teach "facts and figures" as much as how to find them and how to test and prove them.
I had one teacher in 8th grade who tried to do this. Our class responded well and was learning (I think) and this teacher lasted just 2 years at that school.
My mom was told by my 1st grade teacher that I "marched to the beat of a different drummer." I don't know exactly what she meant by that, but I think most of the other teachers tried to drum that out of me. I know my elementary school art teacher did. I think that for awhile, it worked.
I agree with someone else who said it earlier that there is some component of seeing that is either there or isn't and that we can then develop it. Some have more of it than others at the start and have to put in less effort. The rest of us have more work to do. I think it's easy to go backwards in how we see if what we do for a living makes us look at things in one particular way (ie. analytically).
I'm now trying to relearn how to see. It's not that easy, but looking at things without a goal in mind seems to work better for me. If I have a preconceived image in mind, I won't find it or any other that's better. Any suggestions on how to learn to see at 40?
What I am suggesting is NOT the domination of either a sense of reality OVER that of esthetics, or vice versa; but a cultivation of BOTH.
I would hope for the same thing. It would be entirely up to the individual to obtain this balance, as it is not fostered in US society at least. I suspect that you Europeans (those of you who are) have a different take on it. At least, I sure hope you do.
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From my observations (mainly of myself!!), it is very difficult, and rare, that any of us survive into adulthood without major damage and surpression of our "childlike wonder".
We don't survive without that damage even through elementary school, but parts linger awhile longer. There is a constant increasing toll. It is a rare and fortunate individual who can retain even a part of it. Getting it BACK is very hard, and actually, I think that our fascination with the toys of the trade may help. Perhaps one will take notice.
I really appreciate your candid sharing of your personal self observation. Having the capacity to observe the self, and having the desire to do so is very unusual.
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Education is a wonderful thing! However, most of what we are taught now comes limited to certain boundaries. What we need are those who can modify our concepts of "proper limits".
My desire is to set my students free. Most often, though, they are so conditioned that it is very hard to get them to notice. A retired colleague of mine once said "The trouble you're having, Larry, is that you are trying to engage their minds". He was, of course, smiling when he said it, having himself worked very hard at it his whole career.
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Another great way to "restore" would be to again listen to Minor White, talking about everything EXCEPT photography. No one who worked with him could link what he was saying to photography; yet, over the course of time, their work changed...
Hmmm. It would be worth a great deal for me to find out how his students have dealt with this over the intervening years. For a long time, it seemed like nobody talked about it unless it was in one of the "official" publications. Somehow, I doubt that the real stuff is there.
Regarding Herrigel, I merely find his take on zen interesting and fairly amusing. In the book, Herrigel comes across, in my opinion, as a person so completely trained to be trained that when his archery instructor won't provide explicit directions, he becomes frustrated. In fact, for years he is frustrated. Herrigel truly cannot fathom that anyone can learn to be satisfied with the craft through their own experience and exploration - he initially expects someone to tell him what he's doing right or wrong. The reluctance of the instructor to steer him explicitly is the whole message of the book, at least the way I read it. That message of the book goes in the complete opposite direction of indoctrination, even if it is merely an expression of Herrigel's inability to understand that. Whether Herrigel truly learned and internalized that lesson or not, I cannot say; all I know is what he wrote in that little book. You decide. If he became a nazi then apparently the answer is no, he defaulted back to an engrained need to be told how to think.
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