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Thread: Zonie's!

  1. #1
    ann
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    Zonie's!

    I have been having a great discussion with someone regarding testing and within that discussion the following issues have come up :
    1. he wants to have all film and formats developed for the same times
    2. where did the idea come about with using grade 3 as a standard for 35mm film.

    Now, i know i did not just come up with the thought that grade 3 was a better option for 35mm , but i can't remember how and why that became a standard starting point.

    I have started doing a lot of research to figured out where i came up with this thought as well as it has to do with the short toe of 35mm film.

    Does this ring a bell with anyone else? If so how, where, and why.
    Is this just an old wives tale?
    When i learned the Zone system there was no such thing as MC papers and i made my negatives to print on graded paper (3). And so far no book that i have opened even goes into this area.

    With regard to option 1, i think it is going to be a nightmare. Has anyone else ever tried this.

    Which leads to another question about why the same film, different format has or may have different development times. I always thought it was due to the type of emulsions.

    it is amazing how we use information for a long time and stop thinking about why, etc. So this has been a great opportunity for me to re-think a few things.

  2. #2
    Greg Davis's Avatar
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    Different formats of the same film have different development times because of the agitation cycles and methods used to develop them. A roll of 120 film developed in a small tank will need one time because of the rather rough agitation caused by the inversion of the tank and the reels inside. The same 120 film will need a longer time if developed in a large tank because the agitation is much more gentle. Sheet film has another time because the sheets are shuffled once every minute or 30 seconds. It's agitation is also more gentle than small tank.

    Different films need different times because of the emulsions used. The only way to get the same times using the same developer would be to use different dilutions. This seems like more work than it's worth. He should stick to one type of film.

    Because of the small size of a 35mm negative, it seems to lose contrast when enlarged above 8x10. So grade 3 paper tends to be used more often as the standard when printing 11x14 or larger. You could just develop the film longer, but you risk blowing out your highlights.

    I hope this answers your questions.

    -Greg
    www.gregorytdavis.com

    Did millions of people suddenly disappear? This may have an answer.

    "No one knows that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." -Matthew 24:36

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    I think the idea of pushing the contrast in the printing stage is due to the finer grain that comes from "underdeveloping" the negative -- something that is more important in 35mm than larger formats (assuming fine grain is the goal). I've seen lots of recommendations for "thin" 35mm negatives on the web, but none in books. It's probably one of those informal rules of thumb that used to pass between photographers verbally and now does so on the web.

  4. #4
    ann
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    Well, this just re-afirms my thoughts,but better written.

    I was beginning to think i was losing it

    do you mind if i use your explanation?

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    garryl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poco
    I've seen lots of recommendations for "thin" 35mm negatives on the web, but none in books.
    Substitute the phrase "delicate" for thin. I have several books from the
    30 & 40's that use this term when addressing 35mm development.
    "Just because nobody complains doesn't mean all parachutes are perfect."

  6. #6
    ann
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    I remember that we were taught that the negative needed just enough exposure and just enough development to maintain the information and BR. That was one of the values of testing, to determine those elements. Reminded me of making a negative that was on the edge of a sharp blade, balanced just so, not falling off.

  7. #7

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    Grade Three

    Quote Originally Posted by ann
    I have been having a great discussion with someone regarding testing and within that discussion the following issues have come up :
    1. he wants to have all film and formats developed for the same times

    What he wants and what he gets may be some distant apart.

    2. where did the idea come about with using grade 3 as a standard for 35mm film.

    I heard this first from Fred Picker of Zone VI Studios. His reasoning was that 35 mm needed all the help it could get with grain. Hence reduced negative development/density range and higher contrast grade paper. This still makes sense to me today.

    Now, i know i did not just come up with the thought that grade 3 was a better option for 35mm , but i can't remember how and why that became a standard starting point.

    I have started doing a lot of research to figured out where i came up with this thought as well as it has to do with the short toe of 35mm film.

    Does this ring a bell with anyone else? If so how, where, and why.
    Is this just an old wives tale?
    When i learned the Zone system there was no such thing as MC papers and i made my negatives to print on graded paper (3). And so far no book that i have opened even goes into this area.

    I have not encountered this elsewhere either.

    With regard to option 1, i think it is going to be a nightmare. Has anyone else ever tried this.

    Nope, makes no sense to me

    Which leads to another question about why the same film, different format has or may have different development times. I always thought it was due to the type of emulsions.

    35 mm has greater fb+fog then equivalent medium format or sheet film. Probably due to a heavier support which I attribute to smaller dimension film.

    it is amazing how we use information for a long time and stop thinking about why, etc. So this has been a great opportunity for me to re-think a few things.
    This is my experience with the questions that you posed.

  8. #8
    clogz's Avatar
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    As to all films in one dev for the same amount of time: two bath developers (Diafine) are said to have this possiblity. I never had the courage to try it out.

  9. #9
    ann
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    thank you gentlemen, it is nice to know i am not out in left field.

    Donald;
    i have a saying i use all the time
    You can have anything you want , you just can't have everything.


    you also tweaked my memory with regard to were i got the orginal thoughts about this, I studied with a fellow who had worked with Fred Picker.
    My instructor was the first person i worked with who changed my world around and made sense.
    I know that Fred can still bring out the flame wars but it made a huge difference in my life as i was just struggling along, self taught and not knowing which end was up .

    I will get back with this fellow and share the collective thoughts.

    Suggested to him that this would be a good place to visit and hang out to get some good advise from people who care and know what they are talking about. We shall see.

    Another favorite saying
    "you can lead a horse to water; you can't make it swim on it's back" It is the old school teacher in me.

  10. #10

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    Ann said

    Another favorite saying
    "you can lead a horse to water; you can't make it swim on it's back" It is the old school teacher in me.


    Thanks for sharing...I had never considered trying that. Another task for another day!!!

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