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  1. #21

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    LOL Jeanette!! I would never do that...this is from a post from last Sep., man been a year already...and the Crown has been retired now. Have often wondered about the "Sears" kit idea, because recall seeing another one like this in GA, just north of Savannah.

    Pentaxuser, you pose a valid question that I can not really answer, though I'm sure there are those that can. Using the zone system (to a degree anyhow) I found that by taking a spot reading of the shadow on the left side of the church and placed them on Zone IV (this was the exposure), the took a reading off of the bright white part of the building and placed it on Zone VIII (this was the developing). My understanding of BTZS they would have used an incident meter and I think would have taking inceident readings quite like I did with the spot meter (but don't quote me, I really don't have any knowledge of BTZS). An average meter, in reflective mode, might have given the same information...but for one thing it would depend on the weight of the meter (center, etc).

    My experience has shown tht one should use the type of metering that makes the most sense to the person using it. If taking an average reading, and you know your film/developer works for you then by all means that what should be used. If BTZS works, then that is what should be used, or as in my own use...reading the shadows for exposure and highlights for developing...well you get the picture. For me, the way I meter hopefully gives me the best exposure I can get, plus I know how I want to process the negative and hopefully will know how it will print - plus I make every effort to consider how I plan to print - silver base, Vandyke, Pld (Ziatype). Each might require a different negative...to give me the best print I can make.

    Thanks for the kind comments....hope this was not too long...
    Mike C

    Rambles

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by pentaxuser
    Looks a very nice shot. Given the amount of sky, dark foliage and white church with some of it in shadow, would a normal reflective meter not have given a similar exposure to the one used? In other words would the whole scene have integrated to a 18% grey anyway?

    Pentaxuser
    No, not necessarily. There are brightness ranges that do not necessarily translate to 18% gray...it is for those reasons that BTZS or the Zone System works best.

    Taking it to an extreme, if one were to take Brett Weston's image "Garappata Beach" an 18% gray exposure would have have overexposed the desired rendition. Another extreme would have been Edward Weston's image "Church Door Hornitas California"...an 18% gray meter reading would have underexposed that image by three stops at least.

    Beyond that, in Mikes church image, an 18% gray card metering would have not have told you where to place the exposure for the various tonal placements.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    No, not necessarily. There are brightness ranges that do not necessarily translate to 18% gray...it is for those reasons that BTZS or the Zone System works best.

    Taking it to an extreme, if one were to take Brett Weston's image "Garappata Beach" an 18% gray exposure would have have overexposed the desired rendition. Another extreme would have been Edward Weston's image "Church Door Hornitas California"...an 18% gray meter reading would have underexposed that image by three stops at least.

    Beyond that, in Mikes church image, an 18% gray card metering would have not have told you where to place the exposure for the various tonal placements.
    Thanks. I suppose the question I was actually asking is: Is there a combination/range of tones in a potential photo which can be recognised by the photographer as being covered by the 18% reflectance meter which saves the time needed for the zone system.

    This prompts a second question:

    Would standing in front of the church taking an incident reading have given a similar picture to the one taken? As I understand it an incident reading prevents the exposure meter being "fooled" where the predominant objects in terms of area covered will not integrate to an 18% grey reflectance.

    Under what circumstances would an incident reading not be appropriate for a photo, assuming that the photgrapher could get into a position to point the meter back towards the camera which may not be feasible if the subject cannot be easily reached.

    Finally some members and I suspect you may be one,have such a depth of knowledge that it's a pity that there aren't more articles from such members on exposure. There may be a case for a synopsis of various exposure threads in which the "nuggets" of good practice get separated from statements which are either plain wrong or sufficiently questionable to cause newcomers like me, to go down the wrong path. We do get educated and entertained simply by reading all the threads but it can be confusing and needs a lot of time. Few threads are discussions between equals. If it is a mixture of "professors" and "students" there is a danger than the "students" can get left behind without the "professors" realising.

    However the nice thing about APUG and why I am a subscribing member is that other members will always try their best to help.

    Pentaxuser

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by pentaxuser
    Thanks. I suppose the question I was actually asking is: Is there a combination/range of tones in a potential photo which can be recognised by the photographer as being covered by the 18% reflectance meter which saves the time needed for the zone system.

    When one is using an averaging reflectance meter, the meter automatically tries to give an exposure based in an 18% gray value, this may be the proper exposure or it may not. It is up to the photographer to interpert the values in a scene to determine if that exposure is valid. That is always the case. Taking as one example a scene comprised primarily of white sunlit sand or snow, if one relies on an averaging reflective meter reading the scene may be underexposed by two to three stops. On the other hand if one used an averaging reflective meter reading in the a shaded redwood grove, the scene would probably be overexposed by two to three stops. A reflective spot meter alleviates some of this problem by isolating segments of the scene so that the photographer will be able to place exposures upon desired tonal renditions in the print. Most Zone System practitioners will rely on spot meter readings for their discipline.

    This prompts a second question:

    Would standing in front of the church taking an incident reading have given a similar picture to the one taken? As I understand it an incident reading prevents the exposure meter being "fooled" where the predominant objects in terms of area covered will not integrate to an 18% grey reflectance.

    You are correct in that an incident meter reading will alleviate the bias that exists in averaging reflective meter readings...however a single incident meter reading will not suffice in low or high scene brightness ratios. For that reason, and this is where BTZS comes to the fore, if one takes a shadowed incident reading and a lit incident reading then the scene brightness ratio can be determined for the proper film development procedure.

    Under what circumstances would an incident reading not be appropriate for a photo, assuming that the photgrapher could get into a position to point the meter back towards the camera which may not be feasible if the subject cannot be easily reached.

    Provided the conditions you describe are in place, and two incident readings are taken as I have described above, there are no instances that would preclude using an incident meter as the basis for exposure and resultant development determinations. In regard to being able to point the hemispherical dome back toward the camera, please remember that if the futherest portion of the scene is sunlit or shaded it is lit by the same sun that is present at the camera position...provided no clouds are causing discriminatory shading.

    Finally some members and I suspect you may be one,have such a depth of knowledge that it's a pity that there aren't more articles from such members on exposure. There may be a case for a synopsis of various exposure threads in which the "nuggets" of good practice get separated from statements which are either plain wrong or sufficiently questionable to cause newcomers like me, to go down the wrong path. We do get educated and entertained simply by reading all the threads but it can be confusing and needs a lot of time. Few threads are discussions between equals. If it is a mixture of "professors" and "students" there is a danger than the "students" can get left behind without the "professors" realising.

    However the nice thing about APUG and why I am a subscribing member is that other members will always try their best to help.

    Pentaxuser
    I hope that this answers your questions.
    Last edited by Donald Miller; 09-20-2005 at 05:05 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  5. #25

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    Donald. Thanks. Have learned quite a bit more. Must try to get the BTZS book via the U.K. library search initially before deciding on purchase.

    Pentaxuser

  6. #26
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    I suggest that you just forget about using B&W, get yourself a box of Velvia. Remember, when metering, blue skies, medium tone reds and greens work with Velvia.
    Robert M. Teague
    www.visionlandscapes.com
    www.apug.org/forums/portfolios.php?u=2235

    "A man who works with his hands is a laborer; a man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman; a man who works with his hands and his brain and his heart is an artist" -- Louis Nizer

  7. #27
    lee
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    why would he want to use color Robert? He never said anything about color images until you butted in. even with the smiley face it seems pretenious and somewhat rude to try and hijack this thread. Just my 2 cents...

    lee\c

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by roteague
    I suggest that you just forget about using B&W, get yourself a box of Velvia. Remember, when metering, blue skies, medium tone reds and greens work with Velvia.
    Hey Robert,

    Is that what happens to photographers that can't quite handle the technical side of black and white? Do they drop back to color?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    Hey Robert,

    Is that what happens to photographers that can't quite handle the technical side of black and white? Do they drop back to color?
    Shhhhh .... we don't want everyone to know ....
    Robert M. Teague
    www.visionlandscapes.com
    www.apug.org/forums/portfolios.php?u=2235

    "A man who works with his hands is a laborer; a man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman; a man who works with his hands and his brain and his heart is an artist" -- Louis Nizer

  10. #30
    roteague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee
    why would he want to use color Robert? He never said anything about color images until you butted in. even with the smiley face it seems pretenious and somewhat rude to try and hijack this thread. Just my 2 cents...
    Just a light jab Lee. Sorry you took offense.
    Robert M. Teague
    www.visionlandscapes.com
    www.apug.org/forums/portfolios.php?u=2235

    "A man who works with his hands is a laborer; a man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman; a man who works with his hands and his brain and his heart is an artist" -- Louis Nizer

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