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  1. #31

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    I agree 100% with your comments Pentaxuser, along with the BTZS book you might want to check out Bruce Barnbaum's Art of Photography..another excellent read. More about zone system, but one of the easier, for me, to understand. I have not read the BTZS book, but it is on my list. Donald Miller and Lee, along with Les McLean have been most helpfull in helping me try to get my head around exposure. Not all the way there, but much closer than I was a year ago, would still be trying to figure it all out..as you said, there are some wonderfull people here that not only have the knowledge to help, but are very willing to do so. If we could capture that information and but it into an volume (digital or printed text) it would take up a great deal of room....glad they are all here to help.
    Quote Originally Posted by pentaxuser
    Donald. Thanks. Have learned quite a bit more. Must try to get the BTZS book via the U.K. library search initially before deciding on purchase.

    Pentaxuser
    Mike C

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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by roteague
    I suggest that you just forget about using B&W, get yourself a box of Velvia. Remember, when metering, blue skies, medium tone reds and greens work with Velvia.
    I started off in B&W when I went on an evening course, fascinated by being able to take home a few 8x10 prints which were all my own work. I couldn't wait to go home and show my wife what I'd achieved. I now try a bit of colour but negs as opposed to chromes. There's a place for both but strangely enough whenever I take colour I often find myself wondering what it would look like in B&W whereas when I take B&W I seldom wonder what it would look like in colour.

    Colour is about journey's end - the arrival - whereas B&W is less about arriving and more about the process of getting there.

    Pentaxuser

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    Mike,
    . If that range is less then six stops then I would increase development to expand contrast. If the range is greater then six stops then I would reduce development to reduce contrast. The filter factor would probably not alter that contrast range materially...the caveat being shadows which would typically be filled with blue light and a yellow or red filter would lower the shadow values because of that consideration.

    As always expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights.
    I have a similar problem about the relations between exposure and development time. For instance, I measured 22.7/2 on the shadow, 22.6/125 on highlight and shot at 22/15 to place roughly on zone III-IV. now, What I would like to know is how to figure how much less time I should develope in order to get the highlights in zone VIII

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by pentaxuser
    Colour is about journey's end - the arrival - whereas B&W is less about arriving and more about the process of getting there.
    There is a lot of truth in what you say - part of what we do, is that we do it in a way that most satisfies our inner self. I did post mainly in jest, but also as a way of pointing out a different way to look at what you are attempting - unfortunately, someone was offended.

    I hope that you were successful in what you were wanting to shoot.
    Robert M. Teague
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    "A man who works with his hands is a laborer; a man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman; a man who works with his hands and his brain and his heart is an artist" -- Louis Nizer

  5. #35

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    Ruvy, hope that Donald will reply..his help is invaluable. But wanted to pass a little of what I have learned from him and Lee on. The next best aid I have found to their expertise is a little zone calculator from the book Way Beyond Monochrome look here. You can print this out and carry it around, I do, and get a pretty good idea of where to place your shadows and then take the high light reading and figure out if you need +/- development. So, say you take a reading of the shadows and place them on Zone III - That IS your exposure. Then take a reading of a highlight, that has detail, that you want in the print - that IS your development. Using the Zone dial, if you want to place the highlight on Zone VIII you are done..that is N developement, if your reading is Zone VI and you want Zone VIII you would want to INCREASE developement of N+2. To determine how much to increase the developement really depends on how the film/developer you are using. This is where all that film testing really pays off. If you are using FP4+ or Efke PL100 (these films seem to expand/contract well) you might increase your development by as much as 50%, again it will be base on your testing.

    As to testing, Lee taught me a nice little trick, he had me use a white towel (dish, bath, hand, etc). The reason is, that the towel has texture so when testing, meter off of a gray card and process..I like to include the gray card, a black card (ok I use a film holder since it is black) and the white card (towel). This way you can 'SEE' the results of your testing.

    Another book that might help with this would be Les McLeans, Creative Black & White Photography . What makes it so good, is Les not only gives you an example of what the final image looks like, but there will be a negative on the opposite page, which for me, was easier to 'see' what the image looks like.

    Good Luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruvy
    I have a similar problem about the relations between exposure and development time. For instance, I measured 22.7/2 on the shadow, 22.6/125 on highlight and shot at 22/15 to place roughly on zone III-IV. now, What I would like to know is how to figure how much less time I should develope in order to get the highlights in zone VIII
    Mike C

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  6. #36

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    This has been one of the better threads in sometime.

    Mike

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruvy
    I have a similar problem about the relations between exposure and development time. For instance, I measured 22.7/2 on the shadow, 22.6/125 on highlight and shot at 22/15 to place roughly on zone III-IV. now, What I would like to know is how to figure how much less time I should develope in order to get the highlights in zone VIII

    Let me begin by saying that I don't understand your exposure readings, as stated. Perhaps they are specific to your meter. I can't know what the SBR (scene brightness ratio or the inherent number of zones) of the scene based on the facts that you have provided.

    Additionally, different films and film developers will respond differently to contraction and expansion of contrast.

    The only definitive way is to test.

  8. #38
    lee
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    Don,
    It looks like he metered f22.7 @ 1/2 second for the shadow and f22.7 @1/125 of a sec for the highlites. So, if that is the case, then there are 7 stops between the shadow and the highlite. I suspect that the shadow is not really a zone III and that a grievous metering error took place. But were he placed the exposure he probably got an OK negative.

    To review the meter secquence one would pick an area where there should be texture in the shadows and then meter this and THEN the photographer would STOP Down 2 stops and that then puts the exposure on ZONE III. From this reading to get the development time I would meter the highlite and make a note of it. I would then count the number of stops BETWEEN the zone III and the Zone VII. If there are 5 then the development is normal and if there are 6 then you need to develop less by the amount of time it takes to move zone VIII to zone VII. If there are only 4 stops then you need to develop more by the amount of time that will move VII to zone VIII. To be able to control these factors one must run a series of tests to determine what these separate times are and exprience to know when to use them.

  9. #39

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    Thanks Lee

  10. #40

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    Thank you Lee and Don

    Don,
    I am not sure what did you mean that was missing (I am a beginner at that). Does Lee's understanding covers the missing info or more is needed - could you expand on it?, I understand measuring light and reading aperture and shutter speed but numerical values of brightness and contrast are pretty much abstract terms which I meet from time to time in my reading but have no idea why are they what they are (read somewhere that a contrast of 0.5-0.6 is normal but what are these numbers?, what are EVs EIs etc and how they translate to f stops and shutter speed? (I assume its a big one and not expectingto have you start teaching basics but if you have references/links it will be a good start.

    Lee,
    much of what you have written broaden my horizon but is generally speaking in the direction I was heading. Here are some more specific questions:
    Quote Originally Posted by lee
    Don,
    It looks like he metered f22.7 @ 1/2 second for the shadow and f22.7 @1/125 of a sec for the highlites. So, if that is the case, then there are 7 stops between the shadow and the highlite. I suspect that the shadow is not really a zone III and that a grievous metering error took place. But were he placed the exposure he probably got an OK negative.


    Yes, there is a mathematical error (well I was never good with numbers) - did you mean that in order to be on zone III I should have been @1/8 sec.? or does your suspition of error refered to something els?

    To review the meter secquence one would pick an area where there should be texture in the shadows and then meter this and THEN the photographer would STOP Down 2 stops and that then puts the exposure on ZONE III. From this reading to get the development time I would meter the highlite and make a note of it. I would then count the number of stops BETWEEN the zone III and the Zone VII. If there are 5 then the development is normal and if there are 6 then you need to develop less by the amount of time it takes to move zone VIII to zone VII.

    Yes, this is what I have done but got into a problem at a point where I needed to calculate the time deduction. In other words how much less time are two f stops in precentage realtive to manufacturer suggested time of development

    If there are only 4 stops the
    n you need to develop more by the amount of time that will move VII to zone VIII. To be able to control these factors one must run a series of tests to determine what these separate times are and exprience to know when to use them.
    I am not sure what did you mean here. I have done one shot and have a negative ready for development. I am assuming you are suggesting I should have taken some testing of the film to determine its "real" speed assuming that manufacturer rating is wrong? or determine best time length of development. (aren't there tables showing these relationship that are available on the net?) In the few month I am back to film and back to B&W I have developed per manufacturer specs with generally acceptable results but will be glad to improve on it. I am in the midst of reading Les McLean's book, do you have other suggestions on the net?
    Thank you guys, all these learning experience with your help means a lot for me and make the whole experience a lot richer

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