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  1. #71
    papagene's Avatar
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    Aristophanes... I don't know where you are coming from, but the example of your prints fits well within the guidelines of posting in the APUG Gallery. There is no problem as far as your work is concerned. Post away to your hearts content.

    The terms to posting in the gallery are by no means "loaded into small type..." They are posted in BOLD type right at the top of the upload page. It was put there in bold type to make it very obvious what the terms are. One can only not see them by totally ignoring them.

    John and I both tried to reach out to you to let you know that your images are within the guidelines, but you are the one who is pushing back. [deleted] Thus reinforcing the resolve of the forum owner (remember him... Sean, who owns the site) to keep things the way they are. I said in an earlier post that thoughtful, intelligent debate will promote your cause, using the above code words will not.
    Last edited by David A. Goldfarb; 01-07-2012 at 11:09 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Response to deleted post deleted.
    gene LaFord


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  2. #72

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    hi aristophane

    there are a lot of people who are upset about film's decline. but it has nothing to do with gallery uploads.
    skannors are cheep these days, and processing film is ez, making contact prints is ezier even.
    if you feel as though YOU don't want to upload your work because YOU feel it is "too digital" you could
    always process your film, make contact prints and skann them. if you have small negatives and need larger ones
    to make contact prints ( you can contact print a paper negative with a light bulb ) i would be happy to make an enlargement
    and paper negative so you can make contact prints ... you could also make a pinhole camera and contact print the negatives from that ..

    no one is "forcing you" to be all-darkroom, but if you want to, you certainly can ...

    good luck
    john
    Last edited by David A. Goldfarb; 01-07-2012 at 11:09 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Quote of deleted post deleted.

  3. #73

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    I don't have an answer to the question, is forum gallery posting a hybrid process. Obviously, the opinion varies. The way I see it:

    1) Sean makes the rules and his rules are clear
    2) If someone thinks his/her works are best represented by scanning film, do so
    3) If someone thinks his/her works are best represented by scanning prints, do so
    4) If someone thinks his/her works are best represented by printing and mailing it out, do so
    5) If someone thinks displaying his/her works online violates the analog nature of their work, by all means don't post

    Personally, I've done 2, 3, and 4 depending on the works themselves and occasionally by request.

    Within the framework of what Sean says this site allows, this site belongs to everyone who participates and he/she can participate and enjoy anyway he/she sees fit. I really don't see a need for hard defined consensus or rule making. Asking tough question is often a good thing. This case; however (and all the past similar ones), this same question caused nothing but discontent in all concerned.

    Can we stop this?
    Last edited by tkamiya; 01-07-2012 at 10:02 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: stupid typo
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  4. #74
    artonpaper's Avatar
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    I just want to make it clear, I have no problem with people posting negative scans. I do consider it hybrid, though - because the digital step is the step used to translate the image to a positive in a non analogue fashion. The resulting image in no way resembles the original film. To me this isn't the same as scanning an print or a chrome and trying to make the resulting file resemble that print or chrome so it can be posted. Judging by the the spectrum of reactions here I can see why hybrid was shuttled off to a separate site. For the best I suppose.

  5. #75
    Aristophanes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkamiya View Post
    I don't have an answer to the question, is forum gallery posting a hybrid process. Obviously, the opinion varies. The way I see it:

    1) Sean makes the rules and his rules are clear
    Can we stop this?
    Actually, you can stop right there. The problem exists because the rules are not clear. The FAQ on the Gallery says, in BOLD:

    Please refrain from posting any images that have been manipulated digitally
    Other than OP's example and a couple of others that were offered in support, and the deliberate use of the word hybrid, I will offer up the mere fact that every mini-lab output these days will be a digitally manipulated image.

    That's about 99% of the film processing market still.

    Also no multi-media/mixed media hybrid images or hybrid images in general
    ,

    The Fuji Frontier scans before dry printing. The scan then is processed through in-house algorithm to "flip" the negative. This is not done by an optical mask. It's 100% digital.

    this includes digitally enlarged negatives which are then contact printed (see our sister site hybridphoto.com if you are interested in sharing such work). All images posted should be a representation of 100% traditional work, typically negative scans or print scans produced from a 100% traditional workflow
    It's impossible to be 100% traditional workflow under such a scenario, or the OP's. Instead of a general "let's keep as much analog in the shots as we can" we have a rule that doesn't work in a great many situations. This sparks use of the term hybrid, and off we go. The hairsplitting is caused by the disassociation between the reality of what people use versus a purely darkroom "100% traditional" starting point.

    I am proud user of a good local lab (the last one) and a good mail-order lab (thank God they are still around) but no one for a second believes that any of this is 100% traditional.

    Now, there is the qualifier about "Please refrain..., implying a voluntary code. But let's be quite clear that some here take the refrain part to be an absolute black and white distinction, literally.

    I think we all get that anything posted here is scanned and is a representation. Arguing that the Gallery itself is a violation of the terms is a straw man argument and does not inform the discussion.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristophanes View Post
    I will offer up the mere fact that every mini-lab output these days will be a digitally manipulated image.
    Not in the sense that causes concern here. Neg flipping and autoleveling etc. are built into most scan software. But that is a long, long way from digital dodging and burning, cloning, artificial toning etc. in photoshop. (And autoleveling and sharpening are done when you scan a print too)

    Again, for the umpteenth time, there is no problem posting scans of negs, slides and prints. I don't know how much more clear it could be. And this understanding has been working well for hundreds if not thousands of contributors to APUG, for a long time.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  7. #77

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    The aforementioned bold statement actually says more. It gives some examples of what is not allowed in terms of manipulations. While it does not say in an accuracy that lawyers would require, the spirit of the requirements are rather clear to me. Do not upload images that very nature of the image has been digitally and significantly manipulated. At least that's how I interpreted it.

    Anyway, I have no problem with what I see there.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  8. #78
    Sean's Avatar
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    I think it's time to actually create a subforum just for this topic. We can then put the monthly "why doesn't APUG go digital", "images on APUG are digital", "DPUG isn't what I want", "Why can't this site be exactly what I WANT it to be" threads in there. We do the best we can and could never please everyone. Those involved with the day to day running of APUG are quite happy with the scope and content here. It's never fun drawing lines in the sand due to the inevitable fallout, but not drawing lines results in the same amount of fallout (typically on the backs of those running the site). Basically, we must find a realistic balance that is manageable to those running the system.

    Images posted here are not part of a hybrid or digital workflow, they are not posted here in that context (this seems hard for some to understand). Images here are a method to give others a glimpse of what traditional work you are participating in.

    Anyway, pours a glass of Pepto...

  9. #79
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    I'm wondering in which case my images are more likely to fall within the rules allowing them to be legally posted in the APUG gallery and discussed in the forums.

    1) I load a roll of film into an automatic Nikon or Canon or whatever film camera which reads the DX information and makes "proper" exposures for me. I take it to the local lab to be processed by a machine, which then produces a digital print and a digital disk. I either scan the digitally produced print or resize the file from the digital disk and send the image to APUG to be posted in the gallery and discussed by my fellow analog photographers.

    2) I load a roll of film or sheet of film into my manual OM 1 or view camera, determine the proper exposure with a built in or hand held meter, make the exposure based on the best data I can collect,process the film and proof it in my darkroom. Review the images and determine how I want to produce my final print. I decide it might look best as a cyanotype. I scan the negative and make an enlarged negative to contact print as a cyanotype. My chemistry is mixed and coated onto the paper based on past experience of what works for making this type of print. I set up my processing line and no, it isn't just water. When the paper is dry I make the exposure in the UV light box I've make for doing my alt process exposures, process the print, air dry it and then flatten it. Spot it with a little Prussian Blue water color in much the same way I've used Spotone for decades and then I scan it to be presented to a group for discusssion. It might also be framed and hung on the wall.

    The answer is obvious. In this case the lab digitally produced image is OK and the cyanotype image is not. That was the easy question.

    The more telling question might be, "In which case will the members of this organization learn more about analog photography in a discussion about the image and the processes used to produce it?" The answer to this one is also rather obvious.

    As one who has spent 40 plus years owning businesses, I learned long ago the most expensive words in any business are, "Because we have always done it that way." Although sometimes painful, change will occur as any organization grows and matures.

    Bill Barber

  10. #80
    Sean's Avatar
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    I think this has run it's course. If anyone has questions or concerns with the above discussion feel free to contact us offline (click "Contacts Us" in the site footer). Thanks

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